Catholic church and 9 year old Brazilian girl who had abortion

[songstress]

I'd be interested in views on this. Brief recap, 9 year old Brazilian girl was repeatedly raped by step-father from age 6 and became pregnant with twins aged 9. Mother and doctors (all Catholic) procurred an abortion and were promptly excommunicated by the church. The doctors said quite categorically that the girl would probably die if she went to term. The church rules that anyone involved in procurring an abortion is immediately excommunicated as it is an evil act, regardless of the circumstances. The step-father wasn't excommunicated or the child who is considered too young to make her own decisions.

I was brought up Catholic and my elderly parents (both intelligent people) are extremely religious. I no longer consider myself a Catholic, rather a Christian and I attend a C of E church and my DD goes to a
C of E school. I'm absolutely appalled by this case and it has moved me further from Catholicism than ever. Apparently a spokesman for the Vatican has condoned the actions of the Brazilian church. My parents are defending ththe church because they find it virtually impossible to question any of its rulings.

I do appreciate how dearly they hold the church and I don't want to upset them because they really are good, decent people but I'm really shocked that they don't seem able to question this. When I visit them I take me and DD of 9 to a Catholic service just to please them but I don't know if it would be right for me to carry on doing this now. On the other hand I know how much it would hurt them if I stopped and am in a real quandry. Is there anyone in a similar situation or who has any views on this horrendous case?

Disgusting! I don't believe abortion should be carried out willy nilly but in the case of a 9 year old child who has been raped, for Gods sake.

I am not Catholic, but I am appalled by any church that excommunicates for saving a little girls life and gives a slap on the wrist to the father figure who impregnated her.

Just unbelievable.

This may be too harsh, but I would ask your parents how they would feel if it was your dd in that dreadful situation. Would they really be prepared to see her die?

That church needs bringing to its knees...

What's WRONG with them FFS? I am so angry now.

The rapist, child ruining animal gets to stay happily in the church yet the child he's caused all that heartache, danger and abuse to is excommunicated for saving her life??!

What screwed up church DOES that to a child? They are condoning child abuse

I think tiredlady has the answer.

I personally wouldn't take myself or my dc's to something I didn't agree with or like, like a religious service, just to please parents.

On this case, the Church makes me want to puke. So inflexible.

I did ask my parents how they'd feel if it was their beloved (only) grandchild. And you know what they said? They'd have to think long and hard about it!! Not of course they'd want her to have an abortion - they'd have to weigh up the taking of two innocent lives against what it might do to her!

There's no hope for them I'm afraid and really no point in discussing it further with them, I'll just get really angry. My dad will be scouring the internet now to find stuff to justify the church's stance and it makes me very sad because he's such a lovely man. Just totally deluded. But it does make me not want to set foot in another Catholic church ever again despite the fact that my parents will express huge disappointment and disapproval.

This is why I stay away from the Catholic church. I once used confession as my chance to tell the priest that my father was a child beating abuser, and what did he do?
Told my Father.
And told me off for saying 'wicked lies' and that I should respect my father and the rules of his house.
They ahve no give at all, in their eyesyou follow the outdated doctrines or are going to hell. That poor girl.
I wouldn't take your DD to a service unless she wanted to.

I'm in Brazil - its been a total media circus about the poor child. I'm also Catholic, but non-practicing, and having a hard time with the whole issue of the inflexibility of the Church...

On the bright side, all those involved (medical staff) said they stood by their convictions and basically said that if the Church felt like that, so be it. Good for them for putting the girl's life above "the rules"!

There are many practicing catholics, myself included, who feel the same way.

I am still a catholic because I believe in transubstantiation and I accept the church's guidelines on most things.

But I detest this new Pope (they never try to assassinate the bad ones do they?) and I've struggled with the church since the furore with Amnesty - who I support.

I will not abandon the church because then it will be left with deluded, righteous, hypocrites. Instead I shout from the rooftops about how I feel. I write letters to the Vatican. I may even bring out my own alternative, catholic newsletter. I want to be the voice of dissent. The church means too much to me to just abandon it now. It's too easy to walk away.

It's like living in the UK, a democratic country whose intelligence service colluded in torture and probably still does. Whose leaders sent off our soldiers to fight an illegal war. Whose governments and institutions are rife with corruption and greed - what's so different about the Vatican eh? Yet I haven't upped and left (well I did but I came back), instead I write letters, join marches, make my voice heard.

This is what you need to do.

Such misogynistic, slim ridden, filth mongoring, sorry rotten excuses for human beings, they make me sick! As for condoning child abuse, how much have they had to pay out now because of paedophile priests?

On the plus side according to their own belief system they are all going to rot in hell. Forgivness of sins and all that, let him without sin cast the first stone. Eternity in purgetory until their souls are pure.

Did anyone see the interview on Channal Four where the Catholic charity worker stated that condoms do not prevent the spread of HIV. For goodness sake what goes on in these people's heads?

Agree with Rhubarb?I have a 9yo dd who is an altar server in our local church. I find this case extremely upsetting?but it doesn?t reflect my day to day experience of the church at parish level at all. The church is much more than a few elderly >men< in Rome.

Rhubarb?what address do you write to?

facist dictator Eminence Pope Benedict XVI
Vatican City
Vatican
00120 Italy

Rhubarb

Does he write back? My MP always sends me such lovely replies. Her target audience is somewhat smaller .

I sometimes get a reply from his secretary.

They'll probably take out a restraining order against me soon!

You are better off writing to the Bishops, get a campaign going. Many of them disagree with the Church's rulings and if enough catholics were to speak out, then the Church would be forced to address the issue.

Horrifying story. Glad to hear there are Catholics who are protesting and telling the hierarchy quite how wrong this is. Sentencing a victim of child abuse to death is plain evil - especially when they are not excommunicating the criminal stepfather.

On previous thread about this, someone looked up the history and turns out that for centuries the church allowed abortions up to 'quickening' i.e. when the mother could feel the foetus move. So the ban on abortion isn't as fundamental as they now pretend it is.

It is a horrible case.
Just abominable.

The new pope has caused both my sister and my husband to turn their backs on Catholicism. Our son were baptized Catholic, but wont go for communion.

I don't agree with the abortions, but I'm completely that the RC church thinks it's fine and dandy to sanction the medical staff and the mother, but not one hint of a problem with the childs rapist, who also, I believe, abused her SN sister.

sorry, didn't mean 'sanction', I meant punish.

what do you mean, you don't agree with 'the abortions', Kay? Surely you aren't saying the 9yo victim should have been made to carry the baby to term, risking her life?

Kay, Can I just ask what you mean 'you don't agree with the abortions'? What would you have wanted to see happen?

Very interesting views from you all. Rhubarb, I understand totally what you're trying to do and hope you achieve something. If only my parents were trying to do what you are, rather than trying to find justification for the church's intolerance, I'd have so much more respect for them.

I went to mass with them last Sunday and the atmosphere was warm and welcoming and I was able to appreciate what people get out of it.
Then I got home and started reading my dad's Catholic Herald and read about this case. The two aspects of the church just didn't seem to go together somehow...

And good to hear from you Pinkbubbles. How is the media presenting the facts? Is there much anti-church feeling?

In Brazil - an officially RC country - abortion is illegal EXCEPT in cases of a) rape and b) danger to mother's life, both of which applied in this case. So the medical staff and mother were completly in the right legally. If the law can have clearly defined exceptions, would it really be so difficult for the Church to have them too?

This is the sort of reason why so many Brazilians are abandoning the RC church for the evangelical churches...

X-posted, songstress...
There was a lot of media outrage over it. But tbh I think the strict RC churches are losing out very fast to either the "charismatic" catholic churches, which turn a blind eye to a lot of things and focus more on helping the poor (and yes, even giving out condoms!) or the evengelical churches.
They do say that people vote with their feet!!

I just wrote a massive post but have deleted it as it was too personal.
But basically it said good for you Rhubarb, and I wish more people in teh church were like yourself.

I think it's an all round, horrible mess, and I have no opinion either way, tbh. Two babies have had to be killed, and a child has had to undergo an abortion because of the utter wickedness of one man who the church can't see fit to even slap on the wrist. I'm just too about the whole thing.