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Philosophy/religion

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"Why hast thou forsaken me?" Lent ponderings.

61 replies

Threadworm · 04/03/2009 11:04

We spoke earlier on the Lent reflection thread about that moment when Jesus cries out 'My God, why hast thou forsaken me?? I mentioned that it was important to me that at that moment Jesus did feel entirely bereft of God. And I said that his desolation at that point was a symbol of the experience of atheism, of a universe empty of God.

I still want to talk about that, but I don?t want to clog up the Lent thread, which has moved on to other themes this week.

I want to mention a small but rather joyful experience that I had while walking the dog on this bright spring morning. As usual I was admiring the spontaneous joy my dog has in so many things. He doesn?t stop to ask why he chases a stick or a rabbit. He is simply acting out his instincts and experiencing the pleasure that evolution programmes into the activity.

We are different. We ask ?Why, what value does it have?? for all of the actions we perform. We are reflective beings, and reflection is ?desacralising? (is that a word?) ? desecrating (that?s a word). That is, it takes the value out of the action: it places it in the reason for the action. So that the value of everything becomes dependant on the discovery of some ultimate, something which is of value in itself.

And once we are deprived of the ancient myths and mesmerizing traditions that give traditional societies clear (illusory) answers about ultimate value, we ? or many of us ? come up against the absence of any compelling answer. Why live? (?What value does our living have??) We have all our instrumental aims ? we work to feed the children, etc. But what actions have intrinsic value?

That question is a separation. My dog is immersed in what he does. I have been torn apart from what I do.

And not only from what I do, I?ve been torn apart from everything ? the bright spring morning. What value does that have? When we reflect on anything we take it as the object of our understanding. We stand apart from it. And reflection on the bright spring morning, on the material universe, teaches us causes but it does not teach us reasons for its existence. So again, it is desacralising, desecrating.

Our thoughtfulness, our intellect, destroys a happy union with ourselves and our surroundings. And that of course is what is conveyed in the story of the Garden of Eden. The evolutionary significance of our intelligence is that it makes us highly adaptive ? it gives us choices so that we can shape our survival techniques to a variety of situations. It gives us free will. If my dog asked ?Why chase sticks?? he would be thrown out of Eden too.

I haven?t got to my small joyful experience yet but the post is already too long. I?ve only got as far as indicating that Jesus? desolation in the cross is the encapsulation of an awful separation that we are doomed to as a species. The absolute loss of value, loss of sacredness. Christianity has the immense value of stating that loss. And the next question is whether and how it redeems it.

Is anyone interested in pursuing this further at all?

OP posts:
justaboutindisguise · 05/03/2009 09:39

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mersmam · 05/03/2009 09:47

What do you mean then Justabout? (sorry if I misunderstood - am really trying to get my head around what you people are saying but please give me time - I don't have any formal training in philosophy/ theology but am really keen to know more about what you mean).

I did not mean to 'claim' that Christians are the only religion who believe in a 'personal' kind of God - I just wanted to know if any other faiths do - am I right in thinking that Christians only believe that God has taken a human form (perhaps that was more what I meant to say before)?

Sorry if I'm sounding too impassioned about all this, I do find in fascinating and am trying to work through in my own mind what you are saying - I do not mean to be offending anyone. I just (like the rest of you I think) care deeply about my religion and find it hard not to discuss it without getting a bit impassioned!

Will take a step back after this as I think my ideas are probably not what you want to discuss on this thresd

justaboutindisguise · 05/03/2009 09:48

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mersmam · 05/03/2009 09:52

Thanks justabout. I hope your dad is OK.

justaboutindisguise · 05/03/2009 12:57

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justaboutindisguise · 05/03/2009 12:59

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mersmam · 05/03/2009 20:34

Great explanation Justa - thanks for taking the time.
Will need to read it a few more times and think hard (possibly for a few days!) and then may get back to you with more questions
I do hope things are OK with your dad.
Thanks again.

katiek123 · 06/03/2009 10:53

...thanks everyone for a fascinating thread. great posts threadworm and all the rest of you too! i resolve to return later to absorb all your words of wisdom more fully. i am a tad bamboozled, but feeling very s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d and challenged. i must just say at this point how much i have learned in general on this part of the MN forum in the last few months - it has been such a relief to find so many people contemplating the deeper (and perplexing) mysteries of life just as i do constantly - but putting their search into words so much more eloquently than i ever could! not really the sort of stuff it's eay to discuss on the skool run, i find...
justa, have you read 'living buddha living christ' (thich nhat hahn) - i know we've brought it up on another thread - i am hoping to find some answers within re the considerable and fascinating overlap between the two religions...back later and hope your dad is okay x

justaboutindisguise · 06/03/2009 14:56

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katiek123 · 07/03/2009 16:03

rev, you should see the mounting pile of books on my kitchen shelf - it's beyond a joke. i took some time off 'buddhism for mothers' this morning to devour three richard yates short stories in rapid succession - SUCH a treat, after months of non-fiction!! but there's just been so many worthy tomes to plough through of late - many recommended on here. don't for a moment think i consider you a slacker on the reading front- are you kidding?! if i'd read a small fraction of what you have on the theology front i would be delighted with myself. thinking of you and of your dad. have a good weekend everyone

BetsyBoop · 07/03/2009 16:52

thanks for the book recommendation katie123, I'll have to get that. I've been facinated by buddhism since I was lucky enough to go on holiday to Bhutan a few years ago - everyone is just so devout & trusting in their religion, and even though they would be considered extremely "poor" by western material standards, they were so "rich" spiritually - it was a very humbling experience. It will be really interesting to understand the similarities to christianity more.

Justa - sorry to hear about your Dad {hugs}

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