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Philosophy/religion

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"Why hast thou forsaken me?" Lent ponderings.

61 replies

Threadworm · 04/03/2009 11:04

We spoke earlier on the Lent reflection thread about that moment when Jesus cries out 'My God, why hast thou forsaken me?? I mentioned that it was important to me that at that moment Jesus did feel entirely bereft of God. And I said that his desolation at that point was a symbol of the experience of atheism, of a universe empty of God.

I still want to talk about that, but I don?t want to clog up the Lent thread, which has moved on to other themes this week.

I want to mention a small but rather joyful experience that I had while walking the dog on this bright spring morning. As usual I was admiring the spontaneous joy my dog has in so many things. He doesn?t stop to ask why he chases a stick or a rabbit. He is simply acting out his instincts and experiencing the pleasure that evolution programmes into the activity.

We are different. We ask ?Why, what value does it have?? for all of the actions we perform. We are reflective beings, and reflection is ?desacralising? (is that a word?) ? desecrating (that?s a word). That is, it takes the value out of the action: it places it in the reason for the action. So that the value of everything becomes dependant on the discovery of some ultimate, something which is of value in itself.

And once we are deprived of the ancient myths and mesmerizing traditions that give traditional societies clear (illusory) answers about ultimate value, we ? or many of us ? come up against the absence of any compelling answer. Why live? (?What value does our living have??) We have all our instrumental aims ? we work to feed the children, etc. But what actions have intrinsic value?

That question is a separation. My dog is immersed in what he does. I have been torn apart from what I do.

And not only from what I do, I?ve been torn apart from everything ? the bright spring morning. What value does that have? When we reflect on anything we take it as the object of our understanding. We stand apart from it. And reflection on the bright spring morning, on the material universe, teaches us causes but it does not teach us reasons for its existence. So again, it is desacralising, desecrating.

Our thoughtfulness, our intellect, destroys a happy union with ourselves and our surroundings. And that of course is what is conveyed in the story of the Garden of Eden. The evolutionary significance of our intelligence is that it makes us highly adaptive ? it gives us choices so that we can shape our survival techniques to a variety of situations. It gives us free will. If my dog asked ?Why chase sticks?? he would be thrown out of Eden too.

I haven?t got to my small joyful experience yet but the post is already too long. I?ve only got as far as indicating that Jesus? desolation in the cross is the encapsulation of an awful separation that we are doomed to as a species. The absolute loss of value, loss of sacredness. Christianity has the immense value of stating that loss. And the next question is whether and how it redeems it.

Is anyone interested in pursuing this further at all?

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BetsyBoop · 04/03/2009 15:01

wow this is really interesting, but a bit deep for me, can I sit at the back with anyone else who is feeling a bit dim?

I'll have a think & a ponder & see if I can add anything that might be of interest

KayHarker · 04/03/2009 15:05

That 'blue' really is a helpful analogy, Threadworm, thanks.

(Doctor Who might not exist, but Tennant's Hamlet does )

KayHarker · 04/03/2009 15:08

Please, no-one feel dim. I'm not brain of britian, these are just the sleep-starved ramblings of a Christian who isn't very good at it.

Threadworm · 04/03/2009 15:53

Yes, second that. I am completely ignorant of theology and just blundering around. I am really grateful for anything anyone has to say.

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justaboutindisguise · 04/03/2009 15:56

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KayHarker · 04/03/2009 15:58

Flying high high high at the airport....

KayHarker · 04/03/2009 15:58

(sorry, got cbeebies on too! )

justaboutindisguise · 04/03/2009 15:58

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KayHarker · 04/03/2009 16:03

lol, it's boogie beebies.. repetitious rubbish that I really would like to be one of those things that, if you didn't engage with it, it would cease to exist...

Sorry, ignore me.

justaboutindisguise · 04/03/2009 16:04

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Threadworm · 04/03/2009 16:15

I'm really looking forward to reading your posts justa, but can't be on computer now -- coping with stroppy 13yo etc. Believe me cbeebies is preferable.

Will come on as soon as I can.

I am so grateful to be able to talk like this.

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Threadworm · 04/03/2009 16:18

Actually have read now. Your latest post seems very helpful justa. Focus on action. It is a relief really, because, as the warders say in the film Cool Hand Luke , I just can't 'get my mind right'

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IorekByrnison · 04/03/2009 17:49

Threadworm, these are wonderful posts. I am really grateful as they articulate with incredible clarity a lot of stuff I have been floundering around with. I shall read them all again a bit later.

Interesting comments on Pullman too. He is very much concerned with religion (via Milton of course), and is as you say very elaborate with his supernatural furniture. He rejects the idea of God but instead puts a tangible soul (daemon) at the centre of his mythology, thus reforming the Christian myth for our anthropocentric age. But it's all beautifully done.

By the way, did you ever have a look at the Ancient Mariner? It is really all about the separation that you describe and the redemption that comes through recapturing the intrinsic value of experience (in his case the involuntary blessing of the sea snakes).

justaboutindisguise · 04/03/2009 17:51

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mersmam · 04/03/2009 19:59

The Hamlet quote is wonderful Threadworm (although I cannot give you total credit for it - Shakespeare played his part )

Does god exist even when we don't interact with him? My answer would be 'I hope so'.
I think perhaps that Jesus was the only person who 'knew so' with total accuracy - even on the cross, in his despair, he cried out to God - he knew he was there even though he could not feel him.

Like you, my religious focus is far more on action and acheiving goodness now, rather than on 'what it all means'... My parents both dies when i was in my early 20s and i can't say religion brought me much comfort... I find it very difficult to picture them sitting there up in heaven! I HOPE it is all true - that is all I can say... hopefully my hope will grow into faith and then into knowledge (like Jesus') one day.

I find that Christianity is wonderful for focussing on actions and trying to acheive joy in this world. I mentioned St. Francis before because he really is the best example I can think of - putting what god wanted of him first before everything and hence acheiving almost perfect joy in this lifetime.

mersmam · 04/03/2009 20:46

This thread has brought into my mind St. John of the cross and his 'Dark night of the soul'
I found this commentary here which I think I might find quite comforting in some darker times;
''Before attaining union with God, the soul must pass through a personal experience of Christ?s passion. This time of testing and agony is accompanied by confusion, fear, and uncertainty?including doubts of God?but on the other side are Christ?s glory, serenity, and a mystical union with God...The dark night is not pleasant, but to the end that it allows one to approach nearer to God and His love, the poet calls it a ?happy night? and a ?night more lovely than the dawn.? At the end of one?s journey, he concludes, God takes away all feeling, leaving the traveler senseless to everything except the presence of God Himself.''

justaboutindisguise · 04/03/2009 20:53

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mersmam · 04/03/2009 21:16

Justabout, I cannot agree that God is just an experience! There is far more to it (and to God)than that.
Am pondering how to articulate my reasonings !

mersmam · 04/03/2009 21:24

It is possible I suppose that God is some kind of abstract concept like the colour blue. However, you could say that about anything! Perhaps the whole world is an abstract concept and none of us really exist in the way we think we do!
To me, God is more real than anything - God is the opposite of an abstract concept

BetsyBoop · 04/03/2009 21:25

I was actually searching for something else when I came across this site, just thought I'd share

mersmam · 04/03/2009 21:47

I think (as a Christian) that my goal in life is to become 'as God' or 'as Christ' and if I lived my life in the way God intended I would indeed become (in the words of C.S. Lewis) a 'little Christ' so in that case my thoughts and experiences, my very self, would be identical to God... not very likely to happen unfortunately
God is what prompts me to be 'good' in the first place, what inspires me to act in godly ways (sometimes)- and god is who forgives me when I do everything wrong!
God is FAR more than the experience or state of mind I have when I feel as if I'm doing things right...

'Hell is a state of mind... And every state of mind, left to itself, every shutting up of the creature within the dungeon of its own mind - is, in the end, hell. But heaven is not a state of mind. Heaven is reality itself. All that is fully real is heavenly. For all that can be shaken will be shaken and only the unshakeable remains'
(from 'The Great Divorce')

Anyway, enough for tonight - my brain hurts!!

mersmam · 04/03/2009 22:03

Just a quick PS!
I think Christianity is the only faith system which puts this emphasis on a 'personal' God - is that true?

ThePregnantHedgeWitch · 04/03/2009 22:12

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justaboutindisguise · 05/03/2009 09:20

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Threadworm · 05/03/2009 09:31

Just popping in to say thank you very much for all your thoughts yesterday. Very helpful. This thread and another Lent one seem to have left me with a daunting reading list, which I know I will fail to do justice to.

But, Iorek, I looked at The Ancient Mariner this morning, and especially at part 3. It is very relevant isn't it? His 'fall' seems just to be indifference to life, to the good creature he kills. And his redemption is in a stab of love for a living thing, starting in a perception of its beauty. In sentiment and the perception of aesthetic value, not in thought or decision.

And how strange that the living things that bring him redemption are snakes. Traditionally not godly creatures, and seemingly rather demonic ones, from their position in the poem. I don't know what to think about that.

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