The Beaver Scouts Promise

[1Maya2]

My little boy is 6 and he has been going to Beavers and really enjoying it.

He is now at the point where he is to say his promise and I never imagined it would be a problem to leave the last line of the promise out which says "I promise... to Love God".

However, we have been told that he can't be invested if he doesn't say the last line of the Beaver Promise or a variation on it that acknowledges a higher being, any higher being will do!. I really don't want him too, it seems very young to be making these kind of promises.

I have been feeling really sad about this, he really wants to go and we want him to go but as a family we don't have a religious faith, and because of this we are being excluded.

I saw that Donk and her son had a similar issue.

It's a fundamentally Christian organisation - there is going to be a lot of church-related stuff. I think you need to face up to this and decide what you want to do. We are not religious, but DS gets CofE messages at school and at Beavers - I tell him that different people believe different things and that he should listen to everyone and make his own mind up, but I am not going to make him miss out on Beavers because of it.

I want my kids to explore faiths and see different religions but this promise seems too definite.

However, if the Beaver Scouts was a solely christian organisation it would be fine and we may not have wanted our son to be involved. But it's not, they allow people of all faiths to promise that they love God but what about people who don't know yet.

Why does this need to be promised at this stage?

We had a similar issue.

In fact, in some other countries, eg France, they don't have to make as explicit promises.

In the end, we just let ds make the promise - but talked to him about how some people have a god and some people don't - and his "god" can be whatever he wants it to be.

Dh actually had more of an issue with the promise to the queen!

It does seem strange that they don't mind which God you believe in, but require you to believe in at least one of them. Most 6 year olds don't really believe in God anyway - some will have thought it through and developed their own faith at this age but they're a small minority and most are just "children of religious parents".

But if that's the organisation's requirement, then I think your only choices are for him to say it (or the least unpleasant version of it they can suggest) or else he will have to leave.

Do they have any suggestions for other wording which might be a bit more vague?

It's a Christian organisation, isn't it. They have prayers too. Don't join if you're not happy with it.

It doesn't seem to be a christian organisations, as you can be of any faith to be a leader, you could be christian, jewish Pagan etc... but not agnostic or atheist.

But we just want him to go a meet friends, play games, think about the world, get some badges. But the promise is a problem.

I think it is a great community group and we live in a rural area and there's not much else on offer.

I would like it if he could say I promise... tho think about what God is.

Or I promise to love Goodness and peace.

Also, even if I belonged to a religious group for example if I was a christian I would be worried about my child making this kind of decision without exploring and questioning what this means.

Thank you all loads for your answers - this is my first time on Mumsnet

Actually I take that back - on the scouting web site it says 'Scouting is not a Christian organisation. We're a multi-faith movement'

It seems to me to be very Christian round here - but then we are a very rural and monotone community.

Intersting background on Wikipedia here

It's the cub promise that involves the reference to the Queen - when ds was in Beavers, we only had to "deal" with "God" issue.

If it helps, the World Organisation of Scouting Movements Constitution explains "Duty to God" as "Adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom."

As an atheist, I can just about live with that: just becasue I don't happen to beleive in God doesn't mean that I am not spiritual (at the risk of getting a bit philospohical, I do beleive in the "power of people and of goodness" and will even, if pushed, admit to a semi-beleif in the Gaia principle in the sense that the earth has a capability of self-regulating). I do have a set of very strong values and a strong sense of right and wrong.

Oh - and welcome to Mumsnet!

I know this is kind of cheating, but you could suggest he says 'gog' instead, which doesn't mean anything. Just a little secret between you and him. Or just let him say God.

1maya2
below is copied from the scout website:
Rule 1.1: Variations to the wording of the Promises
AMENDMENT: Minor change in wording of (d), and addition of (f) Nov 2006.
Scouting is open to all faiths and must therefore take account of the different religious obligations of its Members while upholding the essential spirit of the Promise.

In each Promise the phrase 'Duty to God' or, in the case of Beaver Scouts, 'to love God', is suitable for most faiths (including Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims and Sikhs).

Hindus may use either the words 'my Dharma' or 'God'.

Muslims may use the word 'Allah' in place of 'God'.

Buddhists should use only the words 'my Dharma'.

Muslims may use the phrase .In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. in place of .On my honour. when making the Promise.

Where some other form of wording is required for a member of a particular faith or religion advice should be sought from Headquarters.

In the case of Beaver Scouts, Cub Scouts and Scouts the decision as to which permitted form of wording should be used in any particular case will be made by the Group Scout Leader in consultation with the parents of the young person concerned.

I'd show this to the leader and if needed call headquarters.

I think if they don't do anything else of a religious kind which is going to cause you/him ongoing problems, then I would be very tempted to go for the (slightly hypocritical) solution of having him say the promise, while thinking "God = principles of goodness and niceness"

Thank you so much, this is all great food for thought.

I think I really want to keep trying for him not to say it.

I think it wouldn't hurt to challenge the Scouts on this position. Maybe they need to think about how ethical it is to make children make promises that they are too young to understand.

I also don't want him to think that promises should be taken lighlty, what happens if he wants to get married in the future (jumping ahead a bit I know)and he takes his vows lightly.

Maybe you should find out more about your local group. Ours meets in the Church Hall, attends Church parade every month and closes the meeting with a prayer. It is definitely a Christian group, whatever the website may say, but yours may be different.

(And welcome to mumsnet )

Ds1 has just joined beavers and we've had a similar thing.

We are not religious at all. We looked at the promise and when questioned just explained that he could think of God as being anther word for good. At ours, in a small rural town, they are only expected to do church parade on st george's day and on rememberance sunday, so we can live with that. I wouldn't have a problem with him going on a school trip to a mosque/temple/synagogue etc so I see it as a similar type of thing