another thing about death

[DevilsAdvocaat]

i posted this on another thread about the circle of life but was wondering if i could get views from people on these boards too:

background: dh's gma has been very ill in hosp, dh went to say goodye and stayed with family for a few days.

last night i was laying awake in the room next to my ds. dh was away staying with his family. i was so tired and couldn't sleep. i swear i heard a click like a light switch being turned on or off. it sounded like it came from ds's room. it actually freaked me out as i was on my own. i actually thought to myself that she'd gone. i just popped in to ds's room to check on him and he was fast asleep. then about 15 mins later dh text me that his gma had died.

i remember this with my nan too.

she was in hosp but nothing serious. on my way to work i had a memory of a story she once told me about the war. a nice memory. i got a call at work saying that she'd died and it would have been about the same time. my sister had thoughts about her at the same time too.

what is that all about? am i just making that up in my head or what? i have no religious beliefs but would love to hear yours.

i am a philosopher at heart.

I am sorry your nan has died. I don't know what is with your experience, but I do know that when my MIL died recently we were all so 'in another place' and things seemed to happen.

I am a Bible believing christian, I don't go to church, I just live and follow Jesus and his word. The Bible tells me that when we 'go to sleep' that we are asleep and that we are not floating round trying to contact the living. The Bible says we will be raised in the future to be judged by God, until that time we are 'asleep'.

I do believe in a spirit world, a invisible world of angels and demons, a world where a battle is happening for the souls of men, a heavenly battle that is mirrord on earth in the battles of men.

I believe that God can send angels to comfort us and protect us, but I don't believe in 'talking' to angels. I also believe that we can be harrassed by evil sprits.

I believe God can give signs for comfort and encouragement especially in times of grief and loss. I don't believe it is the spirits of the dead, I also don't believe in contacting the dead, this is forbidden.

I believe stongly that we are all spiritual beings and that we have a deep 'connection' with those that we love and it is not unusual to 'know' events have happend. When someone dies it takes years to see how much they really meant and how much of a hole they have left.

I never knew what life was until I witnessed someone I loved die.

I hope you find comfort, whatever you believe.

This reply was for the OP only and not a signal for a debate.

thank you for that.
i am jealous of your faith, it must give you a security in life when things are bad.

my dad once said that maybe when you die you live on through people's memories of you. so if you are a good person then you (your spirit i suppose) live many happy times over again. if you are not nice then people will either forget you or remember bad things about you leading you to experience them again.

i was raised christian but stopped believing in anything when i went to uni to study philosophy. really it just confirmed what i already thought about me.

however, i found myself saying a prayer to bless my (dh's) family and gma in this tough time. this is weird for me because i don't believe in god. so why do i do that when things are bad? is it the way i was raised?

also, what does it mean to pray as a non-believer?

if there is a God does He/She:
a) listen because he hears everyone, religious or not;
b) ignore me because i am a non-believer;
c) not hear me because i have no faith;

also if i don't believe, what will happen when i die (spritually)? will i go to hell?

i am talking mainly from a christian pov here as that is my only background knowledge but am open to other ideas too.

also believer07, are the angels the souls of people who are dead?

LOL I grew up in a 'God hating' house, my fathers favourite quote was 'he would rather worship the devil, than worship God'.

I have only been a follower of Jesus for 6 years so most of my life was spent 'hating God', I also did a good bit of 'persecution' of christians myself, little did I know that it was God who would have the last laugh.

Even when I was not a bonafide believer when things got really bad I would myself pray, often that pray would get answered or I would recieve comfort, then I would forget God again until the next time.

The bottom line is I believe God has a passionate love and care for all his creation, especially those who are grieving. Some would say 'then why does he not fix the problems'. The thing is we all have free will, and we go after our own agenda, the world has turned from God then blames him when things go wrong.

But I do believe God is right next to us all the time, hopeing and waiting for us to turn to him, to call his name, or offer up a prayer. I believe God hears real prayers, not those of our own agenda, but those prayers that cry out to him in our desperation.

When I eventually was called by God, it took along time and I had many, many battles - I still battle with my lack of faith to this day. Again God reached me in my darkest hour and for some reason I responded, I have had many dark hours in my life, but was not ready to respond before then.

When I meet those who were 'raised christian' they seem to have more relgion than relationship with God. My experience of God is more organic than thiers, they seem to need the whole sunday thing, being told what to do all the time, being fleeced of their money, doing all this activity for God, instead of just being with God. It is not my experience, and therefore as hard as I have tried, church is not for me.

You ask hardest question, What will happen to me when I die if I don't believe...as you where raised a christian you probably already know the answer, and this is true, that those who die without repenting of sin, and trusting in the work of Jesus will be seperarted from God for eternity.

For me, rather then focus on the 'heaven bit' I focus on my need to love God now, to live for him now, to feel his love and power now. Yes I am excited for eternity, BUT my motivation is not to escape hell, its to know and love my creator, who is head over heels in love with me, enough that he would die for me.

And no Angels are a seperate creation, they also have free will, and choose to serve God or not, to as Lucifer chose to rebell against God and other angels to. There are many types of angels and they stand before the face of God and wait for instruction, or they worship God.

Its hard to put things accross in this media.

But there you have it.

thanks once again for such a lovely response.
you say you battle with your faith, for me there is part of religion that seems incompatible with my brain. i wish it wasn't that way.

if someone is religious and believes in god, then they die and their family don't give them a religious funeral, do they still go to heaven?

Hi DA, I'm sorry to hear about your loss. I have to say that I don't really know why people seem to experience these things when someone they are close to dies - the rational part of me says that it's just a coincidence, but I do have faith (Christian) and I do think there is more to life than what we can see and prove. The mainstream Christian position is certainly that when people die they are not "hanging around" here on earth to haunt people, or even to hover over and give you comfort. They are not conscious of waiting or of what is happening while they are gone, but will "waken" at the end of this creation.

Exactly what happens then is speculation to some extent - a lot of Christians believe in a literal Hell for those who are not in a relationship with God, but others believe that "eternal separation from God" doesn't mean being roasted in Hell but simply ceasing to exist. That's my view, because I don't believe that a loving creator God would punish people for eternity for the choices they have made. If the idea of hell has some use in convincing people to make good choices, then it has some purpose, but I don't see that the reality of hell would serve any purpose.

I do believe that God hears you when you pray, whether or not you completely believe that there's anyone there to pray to. If it gives you comfort to pray, because you were brought up with it, then I think that has value in itself. If you want more out of it, then pray to God for guidance, and be open to what happens. But if you don't have an interest in doing that, then that's ok too.

Yes I believe people who are in a relationship with God will end up in Heaven whatever their family do in terms of a funeral. To a large extent, funerals are for those left behind - to give them comfort and a sense of closure. If the family are not religious, then they won't want to say things which are hypocritical, but God knows the person who died, and knows what was in their heart.

thank you. yes that sounds more compatible with what i imagine a god would want. hell is always the odd bit as i don't think that god, by description, would eternally punish anyone. but seperation from his, ceasing to exist in the afterlife, that sounds more logical.

if you pray to god for guidance, to find religion, will he give you a sign? or will you just feel like suddenly you know what to do? i guess it is different for everyone.

thank you amuminscotland, that makes me feel much better.

DevilsAdvocaat - I am sorry to hear you have lost your DH's gma.

When my father was dying we got the call to get to the hospital as soon as we could. It was over 20 miles away and there was heavy snow. Our journey began with leaden skies and virtually a blizzard. Half way there we suddenly emerged into an area of clear blue sky with brilliant sunshine - it only lasted briefly and we drove into the blizzard less than a minute later. I looked at the clock - don't ask me how but I knew my father had died. When we got there he had died at the time I looked at the clock. There's probably a meterological explanation for it - but it did shake me.

I think God will guide those who pray - but the answer you get to prayer may not be what you are expecting. There have been instances in my life where I felt I was guided - and although at the time I took the most difficult or unexpected route it always worked out for the best in the end (even when I couldn't see how it possibly could).

thanks FT. i take it you have faith, you pray and believe that He will guide you?

i'm sorry you lost your dad

DA I am sorry to hear about your loss.

I believe God/Jesus does hear everyone, it makes no difference if you are religious or not. You will always be able to pray/talk to him.
St Matthew ch 11 v 28: (Jesus said) 'Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.'

I believe that sometimes signs and supernatural things happen; I don't believe that these things are incompatible with a faith or religious belief.

To answer your question about praying for a religious belief and a sign, yes I believe God sometimes works in this way. You could try asking God to give you a sign, if that would be helpful. This may help you believe. This helped me when my beliefs were weaker. I asked for a got a very specific sign. Sceptics will say itv was just co-incidence, but it seemed very powerful to me at the rime.
It may not always happen that way though, sometimes you may just feel more rest / peace or certainty in your own mind.

mrsseanbean, thank you. it's reassuring to think that god is listening whether i believe or not. i want to believe, i want to believe there is something more than this world.

the thing i struggle with mostly is, if there is no god then what is the point of life? is it just to reproduce? are we purely biological?

do you all have times when your faith wobbles? why is this? are you being tested by god? how do you address this?

do you have religious leaders that you talk to? how can they guide you?

i have offered to read the lords prayer at the funeral as they are having a non-religious funeral but i know she believed in some sort of god.

i am so nervous. i don't want to mess it up.

DA, that's a lovely thing for you to do. Relax, you won't mess up - and more importantly, your GM will be looking down and loving it. I hope, and am sure, doing this will really help comfort you in your loss.

Yes, personally I do have moments of wobble. I think that's only human. Don't tell tghe likes of Unquiet Dad, but even I sometimes think - am I deluded? Is it all in my imagination? But then I remember all that has happened in my life and I am reassured. Even when I wobble and wonder, I always hold onto this (and this I would say to anyone who is a 'doubting' believer) - I would rather believe in God and when I die be disappointed, than not believe and get a shock. If you believe, what is the worst that can happen? IMO you have everything to gain - both in this life (and - if you believe - in the next) and nothing to lose by believing.

i have often reasoned that myself.
particularly that if there is no god, when we are dead we'll be none the wiser

DevilsAdvocaat - I do now have faith, believe in God and ask for guidance when I feel I need it. However, on one particular occasion I wasn't looking for guidance and just suddenly knew what to do (the complete opposite of what I was about to do), and "felt" I was being guided to do it.

DevilsAdvocaat - sorry for the loss of your DH's gma.

My own gpa passed away about 18 months ago, during his life he was a spiritual person, but disillusioned by formal religions, though he always believed in god and used to say that everyone had a personal connection to "god" whether they knew it or not.

Anyway, during the birth of my son I was down south and my family were up north. It was a long difficult birth and I ended up having an assisted delivery about 5.17am on the thrid day. My gpa had been tossing and turning all night and said to my gma that something was not right. But at a certain point towards dawn he felt a click and he just knew that the baby was born and he said to my gma "Everything is OK now" and he wrote down the time...it was 5.20am.

Interesting that both you and he mention the feeling of a click or a switch.

what a wonderful story dilettante
thank you also for sharing your beliefs ft