If God created the world - who created God?

[LucyEllensmummy]

This must be a question that lots of people must think about. I am a lapsed catholic and not REALLY sure if i 100% believe in all this twaddle about God creating the world in seven days. Not when the evidence so solidly points towards Darwin and his theory of evolution. But then, when you look at how complex even the simplist organisms are, how complex a single protein is, even a strand of DNA is complex and that is supposed to be the "starting point" of a human being/fuit fly/mouse etc. All those chemicals just forming together to create life to me, defies the laws of physics. One of the laws of thermodynamics states that "The entropy of the universe (or any system for that matter) moves towards maximum disorder". I think that is also known as chaos theory. This basically means, that molecules, particles, etc will within a defined system will just drift etc until there is maximum chaos or disorder. I like to think of my DDs bedroom along those lines. Unless energy is applied to a system then no order will occur, no atomic, molecular bonds will be created, let alone come together to form an organism - and then to think of human life and my mind is spaghetti. There has to be energy input but, the second law of thermodynamics states "energy can neither be created or destroyed" meaning that energy can only be transfered from one form to another. Ie potential or stored energy, into kenetic (movement) energy into heat, noise etc. But where did the original energy come from.

Even if you believe that we are the result of some Big bang, which i don't, where did the "stuff" come from that created the conditions for a big bang and how can it all be a fecking coincidence anyway. It just can't be, there has to be a greater force - there has to be a God surely. But it goes back to the same - Who or what created God. What is the real evidence that there is some benevolent being subtly guiding our progress?

I want to believe in God, in fact it upsets me that i struggle with it. I want to raise my daughter as a catholic but what i tried to convey above, not very clearly plays on my mind. If i were God, would i make things so complicated? Its fallable, which i thought God wasn't meant to be. Cancer is a result of when our bodies fail to decipher our genetic code, ok this can be caused by external influence which you might argue is man made, but not always,sometimes, spontaneous mutations occur in the wrong bit of DNA, its not picked up by the cells proof reading machinery and bang, your fucked. Viruses - they are primitive forms of life, they hijack us to replicate themselves and we get sick, they are clearly an abberation - in all of the things that people argue against a god, Disease, war etc, the argument i have always heard is that we are given free choice and as a world we have made some pretty bad choices and reap what we sow so to speak, but viruses are too random for that HIV is not some punishment from god, any more than the flu is.

I know very little about religeon, but i imagine that those of you who make it your business to know, who have studied theology must have some thoughts on this, you must do??

I would really like to be able to reason this out - love to hear some thoughts on this, if i have made any sense AT ALL??

Thank you in advance
xx

Its really this simple.

If you are called of God and chosen, then you have the gift of faith, and God abides within you, an you know he is the Alpha and the omegan, the beginning and the end.

You will NEVER reason out Gods existance, because the 'wisdom of man is foolishness to God'.

You accept him as the great I am, or you don't.

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I agree with you that ID is a pile of horse manure. Its an attempt to mesh the philosphies of man and God together, it will never wash.

I believe in biblical seven day creation, its not a problem for me as my God raised the dead. Amen.

Creation is not a myth, its a fact, and one day man will have to account for the spreading of his own myths, leading millions to damnation via them.

Faith is never a 'personal thing' its an out and out in your face thing. God is true or he is not, you can not keep him in a 'personal box' for the comfort of others.

No ill will.

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Glad you see it my way LOL (not)

"leading millions to damnation via them" bit unfair of god to let that happen if he knew they were going to be tricked. How were they supposed to know which of the stories was true.

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Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful;

Flame retardent clothes are on.

Good thing I put on some weight recently then

Believer you just said that there is no way to reason your way to god

Can you give me an example of things god has shown us that makes it clear that one particular belief is right and the others all false?.

Pruners - flattered you took the time to reply just to me

Of course ID is roundly comdemned by many evolutionary biologists...thats their job description! You are quite wrong to say all though.

I'm not particulary 'up' on ID tbh, so not trying to push it, but was simply making the point that there are many scientists, Christians, Atheists and others, who either don't believe in Evolution (which IMO needs to be taught as a theory as well -I know it is officially, but thats not the way the media and generall public understand it), or do believe in evolution but reconcile it with belief in God.

Spokette -interesting point - if we could explain everything about God, then we would essentially be God. Of course it is foolish to think we ought to be able to understand everything about everything. Personally, if I am going to believe in and worship a God, then I want Him to be significantly cleverer and bigger than my small self and my small understandings.

Good question Ongar - I am gonna pray about that one and get back to you.

I have always thought that Genesis was written in a way that people at that time could understand - not much help if God explained creation in a way that made no sense given the scientific knowledge of the day.

I have been a lapsed Catholic for nearly 20 years, but have recently found that I want to be a member of free church. I think the simple order (love one another) that religion can make out of chaos is justification alone for religion. I know I have difficulties with highly ordered religion - as a cradle catholic I always felt OK about disagreeing with the bits that didn't feel right for me. But a very simple faith and practice is highly comforting and just feels so right - I think away from the analysis of whether science can demonstrate that there is definitely not a god, for most Christians, there's a simple one-to-one relationship with God in prayer/Church etc that is just so peaceful.

I read a book in my teens, I wish i could remember what it is, about a group of actors rehearsing the Passion. One of them, a confirmed atheist, expressed the view that man was just so arrogant he couldn't believe that his only role was to live, procreate and die. So he had to invent God, to justify his own existence, importance. That has stuck with me for over twenty years, it feels an incredibly powerful arguement and yet I still believe in God.

Finally, through discovering a church that is right for me and my children, I feel that I have brought them to God. I feel strongly that they must have the right to believe or not believe but they're not going to learn much about God watching cbbc on a Sunday morning. When they know, they can decide. I'm proud of myself that I've found a way to give them the choice.

Believer if you don't know already then what were you saying?

No matter because I know the answer to this one myself having encountered it many times over the years and of course the first part in this thread.

There are several steps and they go roughly like this.

#1 you look around and say "oh this universe is so big it must be made by something really, really big"

That part is almost understandable really. You could argue that the universe was a hint that god exists and many do. (not me) If you stopped there that would be mostly harmless.

#2 you decide that this big thing is a being that requires you to do certain things in order to get a reward.

Much shakier ground now. Where is the hint for that?

#3 you decide that the details of what he requires can be had by asking your organised religion. Let's say that's 'The amalgamated congregation of sixth day adventist baptist episcopolian christian soldiers' and that everyone else is therefore damned because they joined the wrong side.

That was a bigger step wasn't it and one might wonder how one can watch a sunset or see s spider spinning its web and get such specific knowledge, but it happens all the time.

Now there are lots of christians (even on this thread) who will say the last step is dependent on your conscience and all ways are right, but then they wouldn't be saying anyone was going to be damned for doing their best. If getting it wrong is cause for eternal torture then there has to be a way to know you got it right.

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"by not believing in god, you are choosing to have faith in science - equally as unproven"

kormachameleon, you are excused on the grounds of being pished but it doesn't work like that. Science isn't a faith. I don't 'have faith' in facts. Also much science is proved whereas no religious claim ever has been. If science wasn't sensible your DVD player wouldn't work. It's based on scientific principles.

It's not just those two choices anyway. There are nearly as many different religions as they were religious people.

LOL that was my way of coming back tomorrow.

As for your step by step thing...well its a good read but vastly different from my journey to faith.....LOL at rewards....points dont make prizes with God.

Every branch of 'organised religion' I have ever come across has IMHO is not worth the money it gets from fleecing its flock to keep its sorry ass doors open.

I do not 'attend' a church, nor do I prescribe to the teachings or traditions of 'men'.

The proof that God exists is 'creation' and the fact that he dwells within me by his spirit (oooh a bit to spooky for some lol).

In his word many prophecies have come true, and they could not be orchastrated to come true by mans own hand.

My faith is simple - childlike - some will bash me for this because I am not a high faluting big wordy person.

I guess I can never 'prove' the way shown by Jesus is the truth, it just is.

Its all down to this.

'choose this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord'

Those who don't want to see the truth will find every excuse, argument not to see it, I know because I have done it.

I think from a scientific point of view that it's almost certain a world such as ours would exist because of change, just like it's very selfish to assume we're the only intelligent life form in the universe. Chances are that there are other worlds such as ours brought thought chance and no divince internevtion.

I'm not sure where I sit on God, btw. I'm a catholic brought up but on the fence sometimes I think now. I'm not sure but I read a lot of science.

apostrophe
I don't wish to appear rude but you have no idea what you are talking about.
There are no evolutionary biologists who believe in ID , it would be a contradiction in terms.

Only out and out creationists don't believe in evolution even the only scientist of any note who promotes ID, Behe(whose colleagues
at Lehigh University wrote a letter disassociating them from his views) believe
in evolution to a large degree.

For more information read the ruling
by the judge after ID'rs sought to have it introduced on the school curriculum:

www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmiller/04cv2688-111.pdf

You misunderstand the word theory,in this context. noone for instance demands Newton's theory of gravity to be taught as theory only.

Onagar . Thanks I was losing
the will to live after, as an atheist, being
accused by a christian of taking GENESIS
too literally

Korma : many scientists also believe in god
so how is it an either-or situation?
and if faith in science is so unproven how did I read something you wrote on a computer
not knowing who you are or where you live-
it must be a miracle.!

Sorry link in the above post should be:

www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmiller/kitzmiller_342.pdf

interregnum, I know the feeling

believer07, sounds like you just did step #1 and that is fine. However you did say "and one day man will have to account for the spreading of his own myths, leading millions to damnation via them"

That suggests that you have specific information about gods intentions and not just a warm feeling that 'there must be a god up there somewhere'

Also you quote the bible so presumably believe that was written by god (or what would be the point in offering it as an authority)

"In his word many prophecies have come true, and they could not be orchastrated to come true by mans own hand"

Name one

You can believe in God and be a scientist - as i said, my faith was strengthened by it.

A lot of science is theory that has been proven only on paper or in the bowels of some computor. So is that not faith? Of course the point of science is to endeavour to prove the theories. Is there evidence for the big bang? Real 100% solid evidence? Science is just easier to get your head round than God.

Not sure im with the whole Intelligent Design thing, it just seems like a bit of a convenient explanation - i mean, if that were the case i would feel you had answered my question.

Far to early in the morning to be thinking about this - and i have a hangover!

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I absolutely agree pruners - I think. Loads of science's bonfires are pissed on - something will be publishedin Nature and a few years later something else will be published totally the opposite or realising that the thread of information didn't lead to re-enforcing the hypothesis. Thats the way it goes.

This really fascinates me

I agree Pruners - sometimes I really despair of people, and wonder if there is a way that I can make it clear that faith and science are different things.

I am a scientist by training - I believe in the essential correctness of the scientific method. That is not a "leap of faith" - even if in some cases I'm not very good at following the science I can see the process which has been followed to test a hypothesis and generate a coherent theory which cannot be falsified by any available evidence.

I also believe in God - but that is a matter of faith.

My faith does not tell me that science is wrong. Science cannot tell me that faith in God is wrong. They are two different kinds of thing, not incompatible, not competing, just different.

I can look at a painting and say it is beautiful, I can look at it and talk about the artist or the scene and what it is meant to convey, I can discuss the type of medium used to create it. All are "true", but they are different things.