Being 'socially inacceptable'...

[MrsSeanBean]

I just wanted to say that it's great to be able to chat about this topic (Philosophy / religion / spirituality ) on MN.

I find it so much more diffuclt to talk about religion / faith / spiritual things in RL.

I find assume that no-one in RL will think in a remotely similar way to me, or share any of my beliefs, and will think I am some kind of religious nutter.

Do you think it's just the case that people are more reluctant to talk about these things in RL?

Do you think it would be worthwhile / beneficial to instigate more RL conversations on this subject?

I heard the other day that to say you believe in God is almost 'socially inacceptable' now, which is rather sad.

Anyone who thinks we don't have pubs over here can't have met any Anglican clergy... or RC ones or Church of Scotland for that matter... You can supposedly work out how "high" Anglican churches are from the favoured tipple of their clergy. Low church = real ale, middle of the road = sherry, high church = G&T....

Have just spotted this thread - and MrsSean you are so right... it is really difficult to discuss religion in the school yard etc... It's such a shame because it really is the most interesting thing to talk about!I suppose these social niceities are what prevents a lot of violence in our streets though as it is very emotive and at least we can only come to 'vitual' blows on mumsnet.

I'm actually finding mumsnet discussions of religion a bit depressing though - a lot of the time I feel I'm dealing with people who are never ever going to change their views and are completely closed minded to hearing anyone else's ideas (mentioning no names!!) I'm trying to decide if it's a worthwhile exercise or not. I think the main benefit of these discussions is that it they force you to think things through and make you more prepared with quick and sound answers if you ever face them in real life.

Agreed, in real life, religion is one of the few remaining subject areas on which otherwise very reasonable and pleasant people become inflamed. I suspect that it's partly the case that each side of the argument (believer vs. non-believer) not only believes fervently in their own point of view but feels a level of compulsion to convert the other person to their own point of view. More importantly though, I also suspect that debating this goes to the heart of what that person's belief system is and that in attacking that belief system, that personal feels as though they are under attack. Personally, as an avowed atheist but someone who is interested in theology and religion, I'm always loathe in real life to have discussions for this very reason.

You are completely right cestlavie! What I really do not understand though (and I hope I'm not going to turn this into another one of those emotive threads that I always seem to end up in...!) - WHY do atheists want to convert people to their own point of view?
As a Christian, it is part of my duty to attempt to convert people because I sincerely believe that by doing so I'm spreading the good news - offering them hope, joy etc... Why would an atheist want to convert a religious person, and take those things away from them?
I'm honestly not trying to annoy you BTW, I just really want to know the answer to this...

Yes, I agree, and think mumsnet is a good place to talk about this stuff, though I also sometimes find it frustrating when people seem to be of the attitude that christians cannot possibly be deep thinkers (thread, I know you've retracted this statement, but I do seem to come across it an awful lot here) - that we are just being rather blind and stupid. As for it being a prop....hmmmmm. i'm not sure I'd describe it as such, it's actually an incredibly hard thing to do sometimes and it doesn't make life any easier, (although it enhances it in many ways.) Nah, I'll stick to the red wine as my prop, thankyou

(I don't think I've ever made that statement madhair. I don't think Christians are less likely to be deep thinkers than non-believers. The opposite if anything.)

Whoops Thread, apologies, i meant TrintyRhino, teach me to think I can remember stuff Sorry

mersmam: that is the reason I tend not to get into earnest discussions with people who believe deeply in religion, and particularly those who believe deeply but haven't always thought about it. Even if I was successful in convincing them of my point of view it would be something of a pyhrric victory as I'd be taking away something from that person that brought them happiness.

Other atheists, on the other hand, no doubt believe that in converting believers to their point of view they are freeing them from the shackles of superstitionand dogma and and leaving them to live their lies in hope and wonder at the world, not as some imaginary god or archaic institution tells them - please note I am not agreeing with this sentiment, but clearly people like Dawkins believe this to be the case. Just as believers, as you say, convert people in the belief that they are "offering them hope and joy".

As I said, each point of view tends to get entrenched in real life...

I would feel a bit mean trying to 'convert' a believer to unbelief if that person's belief was something that supplied them with comfort and hope, and made them inclined to be a nice, kind, fair-dealing person. I would feel every bit as mean as if I had firmly told a 6-year-old that there was no Father Christmas.
However, if someone was struggling with the homophobia or misogyny or racism so common in religions, or doing themselves or others harm due to superstitious bullshit, I would be far more inclined to want to help them understand that it's all a load of crap and it's unnecessary to hate yourself for being gay or female because other people's imaginary friends don't approve.

I also get rather at the 'socially unacceptable to be a christian' line as what it often means is 'Waaah! Look at me, I'm a Christian so I have the right to stop you doing/saying/reading/wearing things that I don't like, because Christians' feelings are more important than other people's rights'.

I would completely agree that arguing with people enhances understanding. I partly credit the atheists on MN with convincing me that they have got it all wrong - I was a bit of a doubting Thomas before. (Sorry guys, not quite the outcome you had hoped for but true all the same).

You can hear all the arguments from the Christians and think, 'well you would say that, wouldn't you' but listening to the other side clarifies things.

There are very few places were you can debate with a range of people with different views and get an opinion of many different beliefs. I can't think of a way you could that in RL even if you wanted to do it - you aren't going to get that spread of ideas in the school playground or at work. Besides I am not sure you would want to have such an emotive discussion with people you know and have to live with (in a more general way, not in a house sharing sort of way).

Agree very much with cestlavie.

I have very few Christian friends in real life. Funnily enough the most regular churchgoers amongst my friends are a gay couple (so thankfully they are not all homophobic nutters).

I have a glimmering of a germ of a theory that the reason Britain is such a secular country compared with others is because we have such good television here. I do often feel that TV has taken over many of the functions of religion (not all of course), particularly in terms of moral guidance. But that might be a discussion for another day.

Justa - I must confess that I too find the sheep on either side of the fence much more irritating than those who just happen to have a different view from mine. I guess I just find it hard to comprehend how anyone makes such an important choice in their life without apparently giving it much thought.

Don't shout at me when I say this but in my experience there are Christians who judge, judge, judge. They are convinced of their moral superiority and that everyone who doesn't believe what they believe will burn in hell. They don't like gay people, unmarried mothers, divorce, Muslims or Catholics, alcohol,sex, feminists etc etc. And they do it with that sodding condescending expression!

Maybe we get a very narrow minded band of Christians in my neck of the woods? At a recent wedding the woman was commended for being biddable! Upon marriage she gave up university despite being much more academically gifted than her husband.

I know you can't extrapolate that ALL christians are like this but it's bloody annoying!

BUT I really enjoy all the debates on here and find Christian MNers, well no different to anyone else.

AND no-one is bothered by my pagan leanings so..

maybe we need a 'Church' of MN....open to all whatever path they are following?

Blimey, earthymama. Where do you live?

Earthymama - that doesn't sound like your usual run of the mill Church of England church?

Is it some sort of independent church? The only group of Christians I know like that are an independent church and frankly I find them scary and I am a regular church-goer!

Thank you Cestlavie - that is the most sense-making answer to that question that I've heard

Earthymama Are you sure those people you know are really Christians (and not Satanists???)

The whole message of Christianity is that we should never judge anyone - hate the sin, LOVE the sinner (and we are all sinners... except Jesus!) I am a practising Catholic and I certainly don't believe that all non-believers will'burn in hell'.

I agree with all of the churches views - but I have friends who are gay/ unmarried mothers etc...

The church (catholic church anyway - can't comment on others!) is NOT homophobic, people say that over and over again on mumsnet and it really is not true - the church believes that sexual ACTS outside of marriage (marriage between a man and a woman) is wrong... sex within marriage is fine and does not always have to have the sole purpose of producing babies...

Just wanted to get that off my chest because the church's 'homophobia' seems to be mentioned on every religious thread and it gets on my nerves