How do you suddenly believe in something you didn't previously believe?

[AliceTheCamelHasGotTheHump]

I have recently though how nice it must be to have a faith and a religion. It must be nice to believe that there's a god or some sort of power in charge. I really like all the gubbins that goes along with religion too, the songs, the traditions, the pretty buildings. It must be nice to be in the gang.

However, I can never and will never be any religion because I don't believe in any god.

This got me thinking - how do people who have never previously believed in a particular religion's beliefs suddenly decide they do believe in it all? How does an adult decide that actually there probably is an omnipotent power in the sky and he's almost certainly called [insert deity of choice] and [Judaism / Islam / Christianity / Other Religion] is definitely the right way to go about worshipping him.

I'm genuinely interested. I realise my terminology may be a bit dodgy in places but I hope this doesn't become a discussion on semantics. I want to know how you go about believing in something you previously didn't believe to be true.

I have never believed that my fridge has a secret personality and likes to get dressed up and go out clubbing while we're all asleep in bed. I will never believe that. Likewise I will never believe in some Other Power or Force or something in the factual detail contained in most religions.

I feel a bit sad sometimes that religion of any sort will never be an option for me. I'm going to press post now and I really hope I've not been grossly offensive.

Interregnum - I think I answered both of those points in the post which I addressed to you earlier, didn't I?

I don't, in fairness, have a "knee-jerk" reaction against faith. I used to have it, so I know what it is. This is like saying that people who don't believe in magic have a knee-jerk reaction against it. Try to see where I am coming from.

I want someone to address my Pratchett point.

Interregnum - people who study theology at university are a mix of believers and atheists. People often study a subject because they find it an interesting area of experience, not automatically because they hold a particular view of it.

I accept that you are quoting Wikipedia, but sometimes Wikipedia is incorrect.

UQD - not quite sure what your Pratchett point actually is.... that some fiction is internally consistent? Your determination to compare fiction (which the author and reader both agree is made up) with religion (where the vast majority of those involved agree is based in reality) is a bit puzzling. The fact that they both look the same to you doesn't mean they actually are the same.

Addressing the Pratchett point: The coherence in question is of an entire theory -- perhaps the theory that, as a set of inquirers, we humans aim at in our truth-seeking behaviours. It isn't a claim about consistent fiction.

Faith and magic? The difference is that there is an awful lot of very interesting things written about faith. I'm not sure what you mean by magic. Is magic the simple belief in the efficacy of words/rituals, without any of the complex reflection by which religion superceded magic, and through which religion eventually left magic out of its beliefs altogether?

Farewell, UQD. I don't think either of us enjoys arguing with the other, so I will step away.

x-post muminscotland.

I'd like to point out that being an atheist and being opposed to (mostly organised) religion are two different things.
I am both and some knowledge of the effects of religion would be needed for the latter, but none is required for the former.

I don't believe in the existence of your god. It's actually a very straightforward position. I already didn't believe in your god before I had heard of him.
When I did hear of him I did not begin believing in him. As simple as that really.
No one has offered me any reason whatsover to believe in his existence. It's as though someone said "I want you to believe in this" and offered you a blank sheet of paper.

Oh I have heard a few anecdotes and people have said they get 'feelings', but there is nothing there to consider. People get feelings about a lot of things.

AMum - no, that's not my point - I was saying that the "internal coherence" of the rules about magic in the Discworld universe cannot be used as evidence of its status as "real" or "made-up". Ditto the coherence of faith systems.

you are assuming that other people who have a faith/religion have the same set of beliefs and perspective as you did UQD. That is rather odd.

were you in an evangelical church UQD?

Hi UnquietDad. I quoted the bible because it is an important piece of literature which appears to support your view that people of superior intellect are 'too clever' to believe. There are other passages which say similar things. I don't expect you to believe it though.

The vicar who married us was an atheist (he says) until he had a divine revelation whilst selling shoes in Top Shop. I haven't had one myself because I am very busy.

Then why did you want to be married by a vicar?

Normal C of E, but I went out for a while with someone who was a bit happy-clappy and occasionally went to her church.

To carry on with the brain stimulation discussion:

Stimulating the temporal lobe has been shown to produce the feeling of a 'presence'. However, it appears to only happen in about 40% of the population. (This is one suggestion as to why some people are more susceptible to feeling ghosts than others) There is also a well known phenomona of experiencing the presence of God as a result of epilepsy in a certain part of the brain. It's so common its known as the 'God spot'.

If you have ever experienced a hallucination you will understand how real the whole thing feels, even though, logically, you know what you experienced did not happen. Following on from that, it is possible that some people experiencing, if not a full blown epiletic attack, then maybe a temporary misfiring of the brain in the correct spot, may translate that feeling as divine revelation/the presence of god/a mystical experience. Who knows? Maybe the experience of the men's jeans in Top Shop set your vicar's brain off on a temporary misfire resulting in a complete change of lifestyle.

There is also evidence to show that a tendency towards religiosity is genetic. Religious parents produce religious offspring, even if the children are adopted at birth.

[wonders why her siblings are all athiests despite father being a vicar]

I wouldn't be totally surprised to learn that religiosity was partly genetic, but I'd expect it to be a small part.

To a certain extent the brain writes it's own software as we develop. The 'boot program' is put there by your genes, but what comes next varies according to lots of factors including environment/experience and possibly chance.

So people grow up with different strategies for decision making and so on. Not simply better or worse methods though some clearly are, but quite varied.

I meant I haven't had a divine revelation not that I'm an atheist. I was married by that particular vicar for lots of reasons not specifically to do with religion - remembering family, loving the traditional words and the fact they have echoed in that place for centuries. My parents who are both dead were married there and it meant a lot to me to stand in the place they made their vows before I was born. I love the church itself - the building and its history. And the vows are made to each other - everything I said was to my husband not to god. If god does exist I imagine speaking from the heart to someone you love would cheer him up even if I wasn't too sure whether he was there. The vicar is a great bloke too - and all of this was discussed with him over a lot of wine and cocktail cigarettes. It was also his idea to have champagne in the church and not wait to get to the reception.

shock horror! Vicar suggests alcohol in church!

UQD - I am happy to agree with you that there is no corroboration which believers could point out which would convince you of the existence of God. Items such as "internal coherence" do not prove anything. But equally, could you accept that no amount of "scepticism" is going to convince those of us who do believe that we are stupid or gullible to do so?

We can talk around the subject from every possible angle, but at the core of faith is, quite simply, faith.

We do not believe because God jumps out at us shouting "BELIEVE IN ME!". We believe because of factors which are compelling to us as individuals, but not admissible as legal evidence. It is a choice that we have, whether to believe or not. If there was proof, then it would not be a choice.

I know you'll say "how convenient", but it is actually an important aspect of Christian theology at least, that God wants a relationship with us but wants us to be the ones to choose. If there was proof of God, then we would not be choosing.

But why faith in that, particularly? I can't make it clear enough that when people talk about their "relationship with god" it is, to my ears, nothing more than pure invention. They may as well be saying "my relationship with my imaginary friend".

What am I happy to agree? I'm happy to agree that one cannot argue people out of a position they have not argued themselves into in the first place.

I think it's interesting that people choose to see the "evidence" selectively, as evidence of their idea of god rather than someone else's. Look at the Scientologists, or David Icke - if you find them laughable, bear in mind that's how many others see "mainstream" faiths.

Well done mum in scotland, even hardened old
atheists like me, recognize that personal faith is important to many people as a comfort and way of making sense of their life.
I wish more xians and moslems had the courage to write that post rather than feeling the need to respond to every criticism.

Hi, UQD. I am not on a conversion mission. I don't know what might be or seem compelling to you, and it may not help for me to say what seems compelling to me.

But Muminscotland is right - faith is, well, faith, not certainty or science. I have faith in many things I can't see or touch or smell, like love. I have utter faith in my husband, but that too is faith - I mean, evidentially and empirically we're more likely to get divorced than not, and perhaps statistically he's more likely to be unfaithful than not. But that's not what I think will happen.

Once in a while, the odd thing happens... good and bad surprises.

I also respect the faiths of others - for all I know, sincere astrologers or scientologists may well be holier/closer to God than I am. (I only find these views risible in rather worldly bits of myself which I try to overcome - the same bits that have Views about things like food and cars.)

Anything can be a road to God, including unbelief - because there's actually something very winning about the way atheists hunger and thirst so for the truth.

That said, some roads are easier than others .

I see there are going to be Christian bus ads now, saying:

"There definitely is a God. So join the Christian Party and enjoy your life."

Definitely, eh? Uh-oh. The Advertising Standards Authority says:

"Before distributing or submitting a marketing communication for publication, marketers must hold documentary evidence to prove all claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation."

ruty - I know! They'll be offering little wafers next! What is the world coming to?

Actually I'd really like to hear what christians do think of the Scientologists, David Icke etc. Do you have the same respect for their beliefs that you would have for christianity/islam?