AS & religious faith

[CoteDAzur]

I would much appreciate an explanation of the thought process that brings a person with Asperger's Syndrome to religious faith.

In as much detail as you like.

I would just like to add that my asd son [11] is at a catholic school as I am catholic and has asked me to stop puttig catholic on HIS forms.
He just doesn't comprehend faith [ the just believing without concrete proof] and omnipotence and omniprescence are something he cannot get his head around.....

know of some CHristians with AS on this board, will point them in this direction. I am Christian, but not on(afaik) AS

I started this thread because I saw amber say on another thread that she has AS and has a strong Christian faith. Mary joined later and said the same thing.

It is intriguing to me because I would think religious faith to be incompatible to the AS way of thinking.

I'm apparently "borderline AS" and never believed in God, even as a small child.

(By the way, I understand the concepts of omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, etc. What I don't understand is why so many people believe in an invisible deity with all these attributes.)

but why not, there is plently of evidence of god in every day design. Cant see proof of air, but im sure a person with AS wouldnt question that. I know a few AS suffers, children that belive in god.

I'd rather not go into that and very probably offend you

I'm itching to write a hundred ways one can see proof of air, though. An AS trait, apparently.

Hi Cote, I encouraged you to start this thread, so thought I'd better post. I'm not going to post TOO much at this stage, as I have a headache and am planning to take a bath to relax.

Background - I was brought up in a strict RC household, and never rebelled against that, so in that sense I have been brought up to believe in God.

In addition, I always had an interest in pure maths, particular infinity. At university I studied Maths, and tended to pick either pure maths or mathematical solutions (involving a lot of theoretical stuff) for subjects. So I guess I have no problem with abstract concepts there either.

I stopped going to church after university because the church I went to was so unfriendly, combined with a husband who didn't like me going (it interfered with his Sunday lunch!).

I remarried in an Anglican church, because there was still a sense I wanted to get married "in the sight of God" - a registry office wedding meant nothing to me.

It was shortly after my sons birth (DD was 2) that I revisited the faith of my childhood, and for the first time in a long time I prayed.

So I prayed. I prayed that God would send me a sign that he wanted the children baptised in the Church of England. I asked that he send either the Rector or the Curate to the mums and tots group the very next day. That if he did that, I would know - and I told myself that this way I would know, given that I had been so specific, and I would speak to whoever turned up. I had no foreknowledge of anyone coming (and to make sure, I even confirmed the details afterwards). The curate turned up, and I started going to church from that point onwards.

At this stage it was for the children, due to my RC hangups about divorce/remarriage, I didn't hold out a lot of hope for myself.

It was only when I moved to my current church and had numerous conversations with my vicar, that something else started to happen. In that I talked to God AND he talked to me. Yes, I know, imaginary friends and voices in head.

I could go into a great deal of detail here, but I developed an interest in all things religious, started reading book after book, and I enquired about ministry after a talk the vicar gave on vocations. Personally I didn't think I would in a million years get selected, but I felt that God was telling me to apply for lay ministry (Reader or Licensed Lay Minister - google for more info).

So there I was, if I was completely honest, I didn't want to do it, didn't think I could stand up in a pulpit and preach (up to then every time I needed to speak in public, I would puke violently, just couldn't do it). But I heard God telling me I could that he would give me the gifts. Yeah, I know.

Anyway, I got selected for training, much to my surprise, threw myself into it wholeheartedly. The studies allowed me to explore certain aspects of Christianity, including spirituality, and I became fascinated by certain of the mystics, and I could relate to their writings.

I'm missing out huge chunks of story, you understand - am just trying to give you a flavour of what its been like, from an Aspie POV.

I'd been training for a year when DS was diagnosed with Aspergers. I felt as if my world had caved in, because I knew I had it too. My first thought was that God was a product of my Aspie mind, and I had a serious loss of identity and who I was, I didn't know myself. What stopped me from turning away from God altogether is that I had made him a promise the day before - whatever happened in DS's meeting, I would not turn my back on God again. I remembered that promise.

The next year was like a roller coaster of emotion, culminating in a diagnosis for myself September last year. There were times when I felt God was intervening in my life and providing the support I needed through other people. In fact, there have been many times when I have felt that, during my training, on all sorts of occasions.

In terms of my spirituality, I find it easier to turn to God than to most people. The reason being is that I often struggle to express myself, people misjudge me, misunderstand me, even on occasions verbally attack me, and I don't always understand why. Yet I believe, as a result of what I have read, and from my experiences in prayer, that God DOES understand me completely. There is never a need to explain myself because he knows what I mean, even when I get it all wrong. It is knowing that there is this being that knows everything about me and yet still loves me that is tremendously comforting and supportive.

I am aware I've left a lot out. I talk of feelings, which I know many Aspies struggle with. I sometimes wish that I never had this sense of calling which wouldn't go away, because its really hard being an Aspie minister sometimes, and be sociable and pretend to enjoy social events when I'm hating every minute of it. On the other hand, its given me a richness of life and sense of purpose which had been missing.

As for empathy - I can empathise best where I have direct experience. For example, I've been divorced, and know the pain of that. I've been attacked, and know how that made me feel. I know what its like to feel left out and excluded. And I use those feelings to help others. I'm a very different person from who I was 20 years ago.

I realise there are many alien concepts there for you, and some of what I've said may be ambiguous or just plain weird, because I've left out so much (I could write a book!).

Finally I WILL say that I've encountered a number of priests who I would also say are on the spectrum, most definitely, even if they don't know it!

Thank you for that, Mary. Very interesting. I didn't realize you not only believe but also preach.

I'm also very good with pure mathematics - I've studied it quite a bit and was obsessed at one time or another with various problems. What I meant by "abstract" was not mathematical concepts but things like empathy, faith, "Holy Ghost", etc.

When you say you were brought up in a strict RC household and never rebelled against that, do you mean that you never had to consciously make the decision to believe in God? That it was almost innate, something you never felt the need to question?

Forgot to say - If God talked to me, I would believe, too. Probably.

Well, I touched on empathy.

Faith for me is a gift from God, which is hard to quantify, but the effect is that it enables me to relate what I have read to what I feel inside to be true.

The holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit as we tend to say nowadays, is part of this mysterious concept called the Trinity, which no-one can explain adequately, and because no-one can explain it, I have given up thinking that there is a definitive answer. HOWEVER, in my prayer I have explored separately the concept of Father, son and spirit and have examined my reaction to each (apparently this is the Ignatian bit, although I've never studied Ignatian spirituality - its on my list of things to do). For me, the Holy Spirit is pure energy, a force that brings about feelings, which may be of exhilaration, of peace, of contentment, of so many different emotions that it is really hard to quantify. There's so much more I could say on this, but this is the gist.

Yes, I do believe I made a conscious decision to believe in God, it was around the time I had that "experience" with the curate. Or perhaps after I gave birth to my daughter, about 2 years earlier, I started thinking about what/whether I believed. I think that if I hadn't had that experience I wouldn't have started going to church again, and God would be something I just didn't really think about that much. Additionally, I have found that as part of my studies I have re-examined the teachings of my childhood and re-evaluated them, to see if they "hold up" and bear closer examination.

My faith - Well, as talked about elsewhere on mumsnet the last few days, I started by explaining that I'm a "visual aspie"? In other word I have Asperger syndrome, and my brain thinks in pictures rather than words as its 'first language'. I also need logic as my brain won't do a lot of mixed emotions.

This creates a lot of challenges for me understanding a faith.

If the budget will cope, get Dr Temple Grandin?s book ?Thinking in Pictures?. Not a lot of money from good online booksellers. She?s autistic, a brilliant engineer, and thinks in pictures, as I do.

How does it work? Easy to demonstrate: Get a piece of paper and a pencil. Now draw all the things you can see in this phrase:

?It was a complete red herring. I don?t see why I have to carry the can for this. I?m not able to pull a rabbit out of a hat for the managers, am I? I have to be able to draw on my skills and I know life isn?t a bowl of cherries?.

Do you have a picture of a red fish, someone carrying a can, someone pulling a rabbit out of a hat, a manager, someone taking a pen and drawing something on their skills, and a big bowl of cherries? My brain does. I then have to erase every single bloomin image and work out what on EARTH they were trying to say.

Now try drawing these things: the Holy Spirit, love, grace, the phrase ?to be?. How about ?faith?. What does it look like on the piece of paper?

Any luck? No? In each case I have to be able to imagine what something would look like, or what a person would be doing to demonstrate it, and create a visual image of it before it means something to me. Many words or phrases do not make an image at all, and I struggle to know what they mean, though can use the wording because I've learned which sequences go into which sentences.

If someone says to me ?Have faith!? it means my brain is trying to create a picture of someone with a handful of, er, umm, nope, I have no idea what.

'A' faith is (to my mind) what people do when they read the Bible (for example) and when they go to church (for example) and when they believe that God exists and that there is a heaven and a hell (for example). Those are all things I can picture, even if I?m not sure what God looks like, (I can guess, just to give my brain an image to work with).

But I don?t know how to ?have? faith in that sense of ?if you?re feeling sad, just have faith?. It would have to be phrased as ?if you are feeling sad, read the Bible and find out what practical things you can do to help yourself, and maybe pray to God and tell Him what you are worried about? It is a set of actions, not an invisible thought, an emotion.

Do I believe in myths and heresay and do I do everything a church tells me? No, I refer to the source, the four Gospels. If it?s not in there, I apply a test of careful thinking and asking for expert advice. Some religious practices really help me, others don?t.

But I do believe in God, and I am Christian. I've always been, since the earliest age, through a process of reason and listening to other explain, not through church telling me so.

Church itself is very, very difficult for me because of sensory problems. The visual stuff, sound, smells, huge number of ways the service can change at the last minute, the socialising - it's a bit like running every electrical appliance you have in the house through just one socket. I get very overloaded, very exhausted, and have to rest afterwards.

But yes, I have a faith. I believe God exists, and sometimes I think I sense Him. I certainly pray, and it's always worked in some way. Maybe not the way I was expecting...but it works. It's good enough for me. I hope it's good enough for God.

CoteDZur, how would you know it was god who was talking to you?

If God talks to me (like he did to Mary), I'm guessing he would somehow make his identity clear.

In which case, there would be two possibilities (1) I am psychotic (2) God has indeed talked to me.

Again I am guessing, but faced with this choice, I would probably wait a while to see if I show any other psychotic tendencies before deciding on (1) or (2).

Your previous post is quite confusing to me - You don't understand what "faith" means as a concept, you don't understand what people mean when they say they "have faith", and yet you "have faith".

I am trying hard to understand this, but I really can't. I don't really understand "empathy" and would never say "I'm highly empathic", although I have learned over the years to say the right things when people are sad. How do you attribute to yourself something you don't understand? (Not doubting you do, just trying to understand how you bring your mind about it)

Yes, as far as I know, I don't exhibit any psychotic tendencies...

How do I know its God? Well he doesn't sound like me, for one thing, and again is distinct from what I call the voice of my conscience, and I don't always like what he is telling me.

There are a lot of things I don't understand. If I don't understand something, I read a lot around the subject until I have a greater understanding. It might not be a full understanding, but thats what I do. This doesn't just apply to God, but to other things as well.

For example I had Obstetric Cholestasis in both my pregnancies. It got so that the consultant was asking me questions, because I was reading and trying to understand research papers on the subject (and giving him copies to read too).

As for faith, what I call faith might be different from what a neurotypical calls faith. Is therefore what I believe untrue? No, its just different. And is very true for me.

I definitely don't have any psychotic tendencies according to the very thorough test-drive I get from the psychologist who investigates autism etc. Entirely sane.

Did God talk to you as well, amber?

Obstetric Cholestasis is something you don't know but can learn about, not something that can never be explained because it doesn't have a real definition, has a different meaning for everyone, or quite possibly doesn't even exist like the Holy Ghost/Spirit.

I was giving it as an example of how I read up on things and form conclusions based on my reading. It wasn't meant to be an exact analogy.

HedgeWitch - I feel human, although considerably more cerebral (rather than emotional) than most of the human race.

I definitely don't feel "celestial" or "fairy"

Do you actually believe this?

"this mysterious concept called the Trinity, which no-one can explain adequately, and because no-one can explain it, I have given up thinking that there is a definitive answer"

Possibly because there is no such thing?

"For me, the Holy Spirit is pure energy, a force that brings about feelings, which may be of exhilaration, of peace, of contentment"

Or the haploid chromosomes of God?

Can you get your mind around Jesus being both God and the son of God?

Quite possibly there is no such thing, but that in itself does not mean that there is no such thing as God. To me it means it is an approximate solution to something we will comprehend when we are finally united with God.

Does God have chromosomes? Its not something I would see as likely. However we are made in the "likeness of God", I do not see that it is a chromosomal relationship. My experience of the Holy Spirit is how I believe the spirit has been revealed to me.

Jesus being God. Yes I can cope with that.
Jesus being the son of God - well if I read the gospels, that's pretty well covered too. But being God and the son of God at the same time - to me its another of these imperfect explanations which ties in with the concept of God coming to earth as a human.

What I learn from the relationship between the two is long and complicated. It involves our being children of God also, and that Jesus came to bring about a new relationship with God, a new covenant some would say, that had never been seen in the old testament.