Calling all Catholics - does anyone accept the practice of indulgences?

[Sesthinks2009willbeagreatyear]

I'm a practising RC having converted from CofE about 10 years ago.

I had heard of indulgences but was under the impression that they'd gone out with the ark (well almost!) I once heard someone call them Green Shield Stamps!

This morning at mass, in the parish newsletter, there was a note about an indulgence from the Bishop to celebrate the 2000th anniversary of the birth of St Paul.

I just don't quite get it I'm afraid and I think that if Jesus was physically on earth today, he owuld be disgusted with the idea.

Is there anyone out there that agrees with indulgences and can explain to me why they do?

TIA!

It's essentially time off purgatory, isn't it? So, sort of like early-cleansing before having to go through the big detox of purgatory.

The idea is that you still have to be purified before entering heaven, unless you're perfect when you die. So, indulgences are like filling up with a few fruit juices before beginning the detox-proper.

I'm not a catholic, though, and I'm not really in agreement with it, but my catholic friends seem to view it that way.

No, but then I'm not Catholic. Learnt about it in history - one of the things that Martin Luther was objecting to.

I think Luther was primarily objecting to the sale and abuses of indulgences initially, and then his theology kind of snow-balled.

Amongst lots of other dodgy practices. Not letting people read the Bible for themselves, for starters. But yes, you are probably right about selling being a key issue.

I think your right Kay about the basis of Luther's objections.

I get purgatory as if I was to drop down dead now, I don't think I'd feel ready to face God. I'd want to do a bit of preparation and a spiritual spring clean. Really struggling with indulgences though.

It may be I'll have to accept that for me personally, it doesn't fit. I'm perfectly happy with my Catholic faith in every other way. For me the most important thing is your own personal relationship with God and acting according to what you believe to be right and true. For some that will be through the Catholic Church and for others it will be through a different denomination. Me personally, I find myself able to get closer to God through being a Catholic and so that is what is right for me.

Sorry - that was a bit of a tangent! If anyone else has any thoughts on indulgences though, please share!!

Well, most indulgences are given for things associated with faith - you can't buy them anymore. So for some, it could be said that pursuing an indulgence (for themselves, or others) would be part of their devotional practice, iyswim.

Ses, why don't you feel ready to face God? I am by no means a perfect Christian (I am CofE BTW), I don't pray enough or read my bible enough but I do it as much as I can and I am a Good Christian as much as I can be but I am human so God knows I am not perfect, therefore even though I am not always doing what he wants I certainly feel ready to face him.

I have never heard of indulgences. What is it?

neenztwinz - it's a bit difficult to explain really. The thought of meeting God is really exciting and I'm eager to do it. On the other hand, I guess there's some aspects of my life that I think it wold be healthy to sort through first. I'm sure God would not be the one saying that He's not ready to see me but I guess I'm quite an ordered person and want to feel in the right place. Tbh, I could probably try and do more in my earthly life towards this but unfortunately life takes over and I don't focus as much on my spiritual needs as I should.

Don't know if that makes sense??

As for what indulgences are... Hang on and I'll get an "official line" for you...

Just had a chat with DH (whose dad is Catholic) and he explained about purgatory... I didn't realise the Catholic Church taught that you go there for a certain amount of time after death depending on how good/bad a person you have been.

Where did the Catholic Church get that from? Is it in the bible?

The post below is taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 1471-2.

If you can make sense of it, you're a better person than me and please explain!!

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfaction of Christ and the saints.
An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin. Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.

To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church it is necessary to understand that sin ahs a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God, and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other had, everysin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following the very nature of sin."

Sorry Ses, x-posted there. My belief is that you have to sort that stuff out on earth because by the time you die it is too late! But again I also believe that God doesn't expect you to be perfect, only to be truly sorry for your sins, whatever they are.

I had a look on Wiki at indulgences, I get it now.. it is just as bizarre to me as the idea of purgatory!

x-posted again!

I kind of get the double consequence of sin thing.

Obviously I believe overall that Christ took the punishment for all my sins and as a result and acceptance of this, I can enter eternal life.

However, sin is not that simple. It does have consequences. For example, if I gossip about someone and as a result facts are exaggerated or lies are told, there will still be impact of what I have done.

That's my simple way of looking at it anyway...

It seems to me that an indulgence is 'time off' from purgatory as KayHarker said. So you commit a sin, the priest (?) says 'one week in purgatory' but an indulgence could be granted which means you don't have to do that week after all. Which is why selling indulgences was popular cos then you could do anything and buy your way out of purgatory! No wonder Martin Luther thought

Now we really have to stop x-posting!

I know the practice of selling indulgences does not happen anymore and I don't think there's any priest that would equate a particular sin to a specific amount of time in purgatory.

In this instance, the Bishop is wanting to particularly honour the 2000th anniversay of the birth of St Paul (no arguments so far) but has said that anyone from the diocese who attends mass on a few set dates will qualify for a plenary indulgence. Don't get it!! My fellow parishioners that I was sitting with either didn't get it and wanted it to go over their heads or were older cradle Catholics who just didn't question it!

I'm at a meeting at Church tomorrow night so I'll see if I can bring it up and see what the general consensus is. One of the priests may be there too so I'll ask him. We're lucky as our priests are very approachable and down to earth.

So if you go to mass with the bishop he will give you a few days' off purgatory - I am not surprised you don't get it! I would be very interested to hear what your priests say.

As for the earlier post, I think you are right that sin has consequences, but you are still forgiven for that sin if you truly repent. I think sin IS that simple, Christ never complicated it too much. I think he would be a bit p*ssed off to think he died to take away our sin but then we think up nonsense like purgatory and indulgences! Sorry don't mean to offend anyone (using words like nonsense in a religion thread can do that) but my theory is if it is not in the bible it was just made up by humans (and even then it's really only the gospels that I take as read - some things Paul says are a bit too).

The only biblical distinction between different kinds of sin that I can find in the bible is sinning against the Holy Spirit and eveything else is just sin. In Gods eye sin is sin and they are all equally sinful.

My understanding is that sinning against the Holy Spirit has grave consequence and you no longer have eternal life, all other kind of sin is forgivable through repentance.

Then again I believe purgtory is a made up thing, I can see where the idea may have originated from (because of those already dead who are in Hades waiting for the 2nd coming because Hades & Hell are 2 different things) but we are either right with God or we're not IKSWIM

neenztwinz - don't worry your language isn't offensive! I completely agree that Christ took the punishment for out sins but for me there is still something about the effect of our sins on our world and the people in it. That doesn't disappear.
Also not sure how you can distinguish between the Gospels and St Paul - it's all the Bible! But then I know some non-Catholics who believe that the Bible was put together by humans and take it all with a pinch of salt anyway!
I do find discussions like this fascinating as by nature of our humanity, we all have a slightly different take on things. Just shows how amazing God is that he accepts and loves us all the same. Actually, do you think he's having a chuckle at us at the moment?!

CarGirl - interesting about sinning against the Holy Spirit haveing grave consequence. How is sinning against the Holy Spirit defined?

I think the bible says blasphemy is the only sin that is 'unforgivable'.

I distinguish between the gospels and Paul because the gospels tell me what Jesus said, Paul's letters only tell me what Paul said (I suppose some believe it is what God told Paul to say). But yes it was all written by humans so can definitely be taken with a pinch of salt!

I think it's knowingly claiming that work of the Holy Spirit has been done by Satan and/or vice versa. Although there was that couple in the New Testament that were struck dead for claiming that they had given all the money from the sale of their land, when you read around the chapter it would seem that they were grieving the HS. I'll go try and find it.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is denying the work of God when you know full well that it is happening, like the Pharisees who saw Christ do undeniably amazing things, like raise to life a man dead and buried and make eyes born blind see. And then attributed that to the work of Satan.

It's the deliberate hardening of the heart, and as such, I think it's quite a rare thing.

Acts 5:2-4 (New International Version)
2With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.

3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

Yes Kay that is what I was trying to say. It ha to be deliberate with full knowledge etc. Still when you read bout Ananias & Sapphira it's still bit scary because we often focus on a GOd of love and forgiveness when He is still also a God of righteousness and power who does act.