School assemblies and re

[vwvic]

Can anyone help me? I'm looking for thoughts about this potentially sensitive subject. Myself, dh and ddx2 are atheist. We chose to send the girls to a community school rather than a church school as we did not want them to feel obliged to play an active role in religion in school. However, we do want them to be educated about world religions, just not feel thay are being bad/wrong for not beliving in one themselves.

our problem is that our eldest child has been told that she must pray and sing hymns in assembly, or else "she will go to hell". She has also recieved poor behaviour points for not singing the hymns, even though she, and us, have told her teacher she is an atheist child. She now feels very scared that she will be sent to the headteacher, or punished if she shows her beliefs. She is five.

So, our dilema: Do we withdraw her from taking part in Assemblies/ re lessions? We are very reluctant to make her so obiously different, but not sure of what else we can do. Maybe I should also say that DH has studied philosophy to quite a high level, and often have "kid orientated" philosophy discussions with DDx2.

Ideas/thoughts please...

My DS1 doesn't participate in religious assemblies etc. I have no objection to children learning about religion at School but would rather he did not participate in worship at School as that IMO is myself and my DH's department.

vwvic, I would be very concerned if the School keep insisting on it and think you are doing the right thing seeing the Head about it.

I do see what you mean about it being your department, if the dds do have Christian services at school I'd want to know their content and the people taking them as there are some very twisted versions of what we believe out there. I'd rather they had no religion in school than come across the distortion some make it into.

Badger badger was pretty much spot on mentioning hypocrisy. It's not that we want to force our views down our childrens throat- far from it. The sort of behaviour is obnoxious to us as a family. The point of view about encouraging understanding and tolerance is exactly what we have aimed for. At no point have I ever told my children what they must believe, only ever answered their questions as well as I can (I'm only human!) and tell them what I believe .

Kaansmum, I also don't see how I could be acused of "causing conflict in her poor little mind". Would you not agree that children come into differing views all the time? Is encouraging children to question what they are told rather than blindly accepting what they are told by adults really that bad? Frankly, I find the suggestion that my daughter is unable to accept different views that are not necessarily the same as hers or ours, deeply patronising.

Once again, sorry if I've offended anyone

This is really out of order! I am hoping to train as an RE teacher, but only because I truly believe that RE in schools should cover every posssible spiritual belief- such important decisions as what life path to follow should only be made after looking at all the alternatives with an open mind and heart. Plus if I want my religion respected, I have to respect others.

I would suggest that you keep up with the discussions, and explain to your children that religion is personal, and that in some schools entirely different things are taught (eg Muslim schools)- a trip to the library for examples might help. Taking a child out of clases can be drastic (depends on school) and I don't think that making religion 'unacceptable' in this way is any better than forcing any religion down a young ones throat.

I wouldn't worry too much (although of course I respect your views and it must be frustrating to select a school for this and then find everything works out differently). Children are so much more influenced by their home environment, and anyway- look how many churchgoers there are these days after going through a Christian schooling system!.

Good luck

vwvic, the conflict to which I referred in my post had nothing to do with a child's need or ability to question what it is taught. Of course this is wholly desirable and should be actively encouraged by all parents.

I was referring to the conflict which your actions in possibly withdrawing your daughter from assemblies/RE lessons may cause for her in terms of trying to please her teachers and you as her parents as well as fit in with her peers. My main point to you was that, ultimately, I don't believe any child will thank their parents for putting them in a position at school which makes them feel different, odd or socially isolated from their peers. Everyone reaches an age where this sort of thing doesn't seem to bother them anymore and non conformity suddenly becomes almost aspirational - I believe, and it is probably borne out by appropriate research, that this stage is seldom reached during childhood.

Withdrawing a child from religious assemblies, or any part of eveyday school life, may ultimately result in these sorts of feelings. We can probably all remember the token Jehova's Witness at school who didn't attend assemblies and was the butt of all the jokes. I'm not saying that conformity is always necessarily a good or positive thing and independent thought should never be stifled but the need to conform is something which certainly seems to be important to children.

I was simply trying to make the point that sometimes we have to try and see things from the viewpoint of a child rather than ours as adults.

Just noticed that if you pick the bones out of Punnet's response (29.3.05) it is really not that different from the views expressed in my original post (22.3.05).

Well said, Punnet. I totally agree that nothing on the educational cirriculum should be "off limits" to our children - it is all part of their learning expereience. I think your advice to vwvic is excellent and it sounds as though you've got the makings of a fantastic teacher.

Thanks Kaansmum- just got to wait and see if the Uni's I applied to agree now!

We have been very fortunate in that DS1's School have been very understanding and co-operative with our feelings on religious education, this has been backed up with discussions at home with our DS1, regularly checking with him how he feels about things. Although my DS1 does not attend any forms religious worship within School for very different reasons to vwivc's DD I am totally with her over the frustrations she is experiencing.

It is one thing to be taught about other religions beliefs, IMO it is another thing entirely to force (as is happening in vwvic's DD's case) a child to take part in an act of worship (singing hymns, praying etc) that conflicts with a family's beliefs. IMO this would be upsetting and confusing for a child.

Sorry if I'm over simplifying the issue but couldn't you just ask your dd if she would like to be withdrawn from the assemblies?

She sounds very bright and she clearly knows her own mind. Would it be unfair to ask her to choose between joining in the with songs (without necessarily concurring with all the words) or sitting out during assembly?

That sounds like a very sensible idea Shimmy21, especially as it implies that you respect her opinion which, I presume, is what you want her to learn from school in the end!

You may well find (and I say this after having to move my son from his school mainly because of a move but also because we are V unhappy with it), that it is far more important to be with her friends than anything else, which is pretty normal 'pack instinct' and will show she is socialising exactly as she should.

Shimmey21, asking whether she wanted to not "do" assemblies was one of the first things we did. DD is undecided. Her response was along the lines of I hate singigng and praying, but I don't want to miss out on visitors and games. I confirmed that any plays/visits by guest etc are always done in assemblies at our school. If she were withdrawn from assemblies she would no longer be eligible for seeing these.

Therefore we negotiated that she would attend assembly, but paticipate in the collective worship- a situation that dd and the school were initially happy with. However, now that other children appear to be doing the same (found out by talking to other mothers), things seem to have changed amd dd finds herself in trouble.

Hence, our dilema. DD has said catagorically that she does not want to sing hymn/pray. Her reasons were that it is wrong to say things you don't mean. She does want to take part in all the other assembly activities and certificate ceremonies. We don't want to single her out anymore than she already is (Due to a number of other reasons), but at the same time, I want to respect her beliefs.

I guess that why I was asking for opinions, as trying to find a way of dealing with the issues at school seems to be very limited- withdraw her from re lessons (which i do not want to do)and assemblies or not.

Surely that is discriminatory behaviour by the school. I attended a school attended by a number of Plymouth Brethren children, who were withdrawn from the main body of the assembly. However, if there was anything non-religious going on, they were always either present or re-admitted. As a result, we grew up realising they were different from us in religious practice only. I think the school got it bang on right.

Removing a child from these things because of religious belief would be appalling. I would contact your County Hall IMMEDIATELY. I run a Rainbows Unit, and i think what they are doing is about the same as me saying to a Muslim girl " sorry, but if you can't participate in the religious parts of the group, then you're not allowed to join us at all". It's wrong, It's immoral, and you should fight it every step of the way.

Another solution for the school would be the way my Primary organised it; every Friday we had a non-religious assembly (in our school teams or houses but that wasn't important) at which all the certificates etc were awarded.

vw: I think the more important issue is your claim that she was told she is going to hell by a teacher. As I said, if that is the case, you should make a formal complaint.

You said that she is also being told off for not singing hymns - I would ask for the school's formal policy on that in writing.

I don't see how she is being forced to pray?

Sorry, have just seen this am a bit late and don't know if it is of any help. but thought you might want a bit of clarification...

The rules of schools are that they should have a daily act of worship, which is in the main Christian.

RE lessons should also have a bias towards Christianity. There is no such thing as a national curriculum in RE, but each local sacre decides their own syllabus. Usually RE lessons are the learning about religion with the assemblies are more worship focussed.

I'm an Atheist RE teacher, and whilst I fully support teaching RE in schools, I am very sceptical about the role of the daily act of worship. Unfortunately those are the rules and your only choice is to withdraw your child. However, many do feel isolated if this happens.

Personally, I would speak to the head teacher and raise concerns about your child being told they will go to hell. That is completely wrong and should not happen. Also speak to her about the singing of hymms. Many Headteachers dread parents withdrawing their children from RE / assemblies, because they have got to find someone to look after them whilst assembly is going on... so you may well have some power there. I'd tell the Head that you do not want your child participating in hymmm singing etc, and should she be forced to, then you want her removed. The thought of having to make all the arrangements for your child might well be enough to stop the sillyness over whetehr she sings or not!

HTH