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Philosophy/religion

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School assemblies and re

64 replies

vwvic · 22/03/2005 14:59

Can anyone help me? I'm looking for thoughts about this potentially sensitive subject. Myself, dh and ddx2 are atheist. We chose to send the girls to a community school rather than a church school as we did not want them to feel obliged to play an active role in religion in school. However, we do want them to be educated about world religions, just not feel thay are being bad/wrong for not beliving in one themselves.

our problem is that our eldest child has been told that she must pray and sing hymns in assembly, or else "she will go to hell". She has also recieved poor behaviour points for not singing the hymns, even though she, and us, have told her teacher she is an atheist child. She now feels very scared that she will be sent to the headteacher, or punished if she shows her beliefs. She is five.

So, our dilema: Do we withdraw her from taking part in Assemblies/ re lessions? We are very reluctant to make her so obiously different, but not sure of what else we can do. Maybe I should also say that DH has studied philosophy to quite a high level, and often have "kid orientated" philosophy discussions with DDx2.

Ideas/thoughts please...

OP posts:
ionesmum · 24/03/2005 22:58

crunchie, we believe in the same God! When I was studying theology I was really helped by a Jewish elder on understanding the Psalms and Isaiah.

ionesmum · 24/03/2005 23:06

vwvic, the type of Christianity this teacher is going in for isn't the norm. If I were in your shoes I'd withdraw my children from the school. Telling a little girl she'll go to hell...it makes me so, so angry. .

Having said that, if the situation were different and the brand of Christianity more usual I wouldn't be able to understand why your child shouldn't be allowed to sing hymns. Do you ban U2 from your house? Gospel? Every day at my junior school we had to sing 'Rule Britannia'. I haven't grown up to believe that the Empire was fab. Most Christians aren't into brainwashing or threatening little girls despite your experiences.

vwvic · 25/03/2005 23:41

Hi everyone, and thanks for all your views.
I understand what you are saying, ionesmum, but to clarify , I would ban any song which I felt was offensive from the house/ my immediate environment. TBH, I find some of the lyrics she sings to be exactly that. For an example see my earlier post. I'm really sorry if I offend anyone here, that's not what I mean to do. We firmly believe that everone has a right to believe and practise what they feel comfortable with. I guess I'm just unhappy that our school seems to be forcing one point of view on us. At least, that's the way it feels right now.{sad}

OP posts:
BadgerBadger · 26/03/2005 02:30

I have followed but not contributed to this thread, I have recently developed similar concerns about my DD's future school. I think Snugs posted a link to that thread near the start of this one.

Ionesmum, U2 don't make write music which praises a god, so can hardly be compared to non religious children being forced (through fear) to sing songs of praise to a god, can it?

I mean, if your child came home singing this for example, would you feel entirely comfortable? Or would you feel you ought to have a word with whoever originally introduced her to it?

ionesmum · 26/03/2005 12:28

Badgerbadger, U2 do sing songs about God.

I read the song on the link. I'm quite capable of explaining why that would be wrong to us as Christians.

Some hymns are offensive. Most aren't.

vwvic, I'm not at all offended. To make a child frightened of Christianity is blasphemous. This teacher has a very warped mentality and IMO is not fit to be around children.

But I don't get why a more 'normal' Christian view is so unacceptable. Our children are intelligent human beings. They can make their own minds up -including my own dds, who will have naive moral relativism forced down their tyhroats at our village primary.

BadgerBadger · 26/03/2005 23:58

Ionesmum, they mention god on occasion. TBH, we don't have any of their music .

You say that some hymns are offensive, most aren't and I'm sure for a christian this is so.
But, surely it is possible that a lot of people would perceive them as offensive/distasteful/wrong?

It is obvious that you don't support the manner by which the little girl in the original post was essentially threatened into partaking in praise of a god in which her family have no belief.

But, can you honestly not see that for some people, just as that link was 'wrong' to you, hymns would seem 'wrong' to them?

ionesmum · 27/03/2005 13:26

bb, of course I can see why people object, but at the same time I wonder why it's worth making such a big thing of sometimes - not in this case as the teacher is clearly barking. For example, I have no problem with the dds believing in fairies -which owes far more to paganism than Christianity - they will soon make their own minds up on that and for now it is a nice thing for them to believe in. Why is it so horrible to sing songs about a man who told people to love one another? They don't have to beolieve him to be the Son of God. I will let my dds celebrate other religious festivals, read Philip Pullman etc. If I did otherwise I would be bigoted. When I ws at school the Muslim pupils in my class took part in our Christmas concert in front of their parents. It seems to me that all our efforts at 'tolerance' just bigs up our differnces rather than celebrates our collective humanity.

Snugs · 27/03/2005 13:38

ionesmum - if your child came home from school reciting the Herne poem, would you not react at all?

morningpaper · 27/03/2005 14:01

Snugs: I am a christian and bringing up dd in the christian faith. I would have no problem with her singing pagan hymns - particularly if this was a pagan country (...don't start on that one!). We ran a solstice celebration last year and sung all pagan hymns.

vw: I'm not sure from this thread who told your dd she is 'going to hell' for not singing hymns. If you honestly believe this was a teacher, then I would put a complaint in writing to the head and the teacher, and copy it to the governors. Frankly that's not a christian attitude, it's a medieval one.

However I do wonder whether she might be picking up these things from christian friends at school - being forced to memorise a hymn every day sounds like blatant exageration to be honest - I went to a hardcore convent school and even we only managed about one new hymn a term.

morningpaper · 27/03/2005 14:09

Some offensive U2 lyrics (quoting from the Bible) for you:

"I have spoken with the tongue of angels" -- 1 Corinthians 13:1: (I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For)

"We're beaten and blown by the wind" -- James 1:6: (Where the Streets have no name)

"Jacob wrestled the angel/And the angel was overcome" -- Genesis 32:25 (Bullet in the Blue Sky)

"I believe in the walls of Jericho/I believe they're coming down" -- Joshua 6:20 (A Celebration)

"In te domine...exultate...miserere" The first words in Latin of three Psalms"O Lord, loosen my lips"--Psalm 50 (51): (Gloria)

"The sun is burning black ... the moon is running red ... the stars are falling down" -- from Revelation 6, 12-13 (Fire)

"Who tore the curtain? Who was it for?" -- reference to death of Christ in Matthew 27:51 (Tomorrow)

I won't bore you with more.

ionesmum · 27/03/2005 14:24

Hi, MP! You know even more U2 lyrics than me!

Snugs, no, I wouldn't object. Paganism is an important part of our country's heritage and as such should be taught. I'm more than capable of giving my dds a Christian perspective on it. As I once said to you a long time ago, I have a good deal of repsect for paganism and I don't want my dds growing up frightened of it when there's no need to be, even though it does not play a part in our faith. I think that MP is right - you have to go with the majority. If a school has a majority of Muslim pupils then the assemblies should reflect that. It's not right for a minority to demand that the majority give up something that is important to them, although other points of view need to be reflected when appropriate and alternative provision made.

kaansmum · 27/03/2005 14:44

vwvic I really feel for your poor daughter. I think that the conflict you are causing in her little mind is something just as bad as what the religious zealot you refer to in your post was seeking to do.

For the record I am not a card carrying Christian and I consider myself agnostic. I was brought up in a not particualrly religious household - atheist father, god-fearing although not church going mother. I went to Sunday school (because my mates did and I felt I was missing out because they got to make crosses out of reeds, colour in pictures of bible stories and have squash and biscuits) and had all the usual school assemblies with attendant hymn singing and praying, grace before meals, nativity plays, trecks to local church for harvest festival, Easter, Christmas etc. It was part of my education and cultural upbringing. Nothing was reinforced at home and I have still managed to get where I am today - an agnostic and a devout sceptic. It washed over me because it was not reinforced at home. It was simply not really a topic of discussion. Please note that not reinforcing it did not ential ramming it down my throat that it was all a load of rubbish.

What I am trying to say to you is that what you are doing to your daugter might be counter productive. In forcing the fact that it is all untrue down her throat you could turn her towards it, start to question it more or make her more sensitive to it. Surely this is what you are trying to avoid.

I work with a chap with exactly the same views as you - it turns out he is railing against the fact that he was brought up in a religious household. I think that going to far to either end of the spectrum could potentially cause problems for children in later life.

My parenting philosophy is totally against ramming anything down your childrens' throats or imposing certain values, views or radical lifestyle choices upon them based on your own prejudices and preconceptions. Let them be. They are on a journey of discovery that you have already been on. Don't we as parents owe them the chance to go on that journey unimpeded as far as is possible?

My son has just started in reception. We've never touched on religion with him at home (my husband is a non practicing muslim too) and he is enjoying his hymn singing and religious stories in school, just as much as his literacy, numeracy, PE, computer work etc. As his mother, that's absolutely fantastic as far as I'm concerned, all I'm interested in is that he is happy and comfortable at school and finds whatever he does there to be stimulating and enjoyable. I'd never dream of imposing my religious views, such as they are on him. He learns about all world religions as far as I'm aware and I would certainly reinforce that wider learning at home too.

I think that if a religious zealot made those comments at school to your daughter you have justifiable grounds to make a written complaint to headteacher, the governors and to the LEA and seek their responses accordingly.

In the meantime, my advice to you is let your daughter be, let her enjoy her school experiences as wide and varied as they may be. You're probably riasing her awarness of all this, making her feel worried and mixed up and placing her in a conflict situation of not knowing what to do for the best to please you as her parents and her teachers and peers. The last thing children want to feel at school is different and socially isolated. Please lighten up a bit I really feel for this poor little girl.

Snugs · 27/03/2005 15:55

ionesmum - I asked if you would react, not object. I don't object when ds sings hymns, but I do explain to him why I don't feel comfortable joining in with them. Just wondered if you would have a similar reaction considering your comment "I'm quite capable of explaining why that would be wrong to us as Christians" with reference to the Herne poem.

kaansmum - I am very surprised by your post, assuming "Please lighten up a bit I really feel for this poor little girl" is aimed at vwvic. I am off to reread all the posts on this thread, because I cannot at the moment recall vwvic ramming her beliefs down her dd's throat! It appears to be the school that is doing the ramming here - Erin sounds to me like she has made her own decisions after discussion with her parents and is being made to feel wrong about them by the school.

ionesmum · 27/03/2005 21:36

Obviously, snugs, I'd explain to our dds where Christians stand on such things, although I wouldn't stop them from singing them if it was in the context of a school lesson. So, yes, I'd react, but not entirely in a negative way as IMO such an occurence would be an opportunity for some open discussion. But then there are lots of things that they will encounter at school and in society that I will be challenging at home, and not only about religion.

morningpaper · 27/03/2005 22:06

Well quite Ionesmum. Today dd announced that the magazine part of the Sunday Times was 'for girls' and the newspaper was 'for boys'.

Now where do I start ...

ionesmum · 27/03/2005 22:11

Ah. I want to know how to explain that Cbeebies knows children are fascinated by the world and want to learn, but once they graduate to CBBC it is assumed they will only be interested in pop music and being 'famous'.

Snugs · 27/03/2005 22:15

ionesmum - I wasn't trying to argue or anything. I was just interested as to how you would react since you had already said you would find that particular piece offensive.

morningpaper - argh, sexism at such a young age! Don't you just hate this part of parenting?

I think the 3 of us are pretty much in agreement as to openess and discussion with our kids - even if we come at it from different angles

Must admit, I would prefer it if someone other than DS played Joseph when the Nativity comes round again. I have had that particular discussion twice already, don't fancy it again

ionesmum · 27/03/2005 22:22

Snugs - offensive,no. Wrong for us, yes, in that it doesn't reflect our beliefs. But it doesn't offend me. I find far more offense in an average episode of Eastenders - now that they will not be watching!

Your ds is obviously sooooooo cute he has to be the star!

ionesmum · 27/03/2005 22:24

Haven't encoutered sexism yet from dd1 - he rfavourite vid is one about Great British Steam railways and her favourite top has tractors on it!

BadgerBadger · 27/03/2005 22:53

ionesmum, I don't personally find hymns offensive, that would be far to strong a word. (Or U2 for that matter, MP ).

I am not entirely decided as to how to broach other religions with my DDs, I'd like to encourage tolerance, I'd like to encourage understanding. I wouldn't like to encourage hypocrisy, which in all honesty, I would feel singing regular hymns of praise to any particular god whom we don't as a family worship, to be.

Thanks for sharing your views on this , I'm finding everything here really interesting as this is a subject bound to arise with my DD's in the near future!

morningpaper · 28/03/2005 09:01

It's a good question (how to broach other religions). We don't have many (any? I'm trying to think) friends who openly practice other religious practices (except for paganism and a few Buddhists).

We do have a shelf of 'other religions' sacred texts and spiritual books. We also tend to visit other religions' holy sites on holiday (not much of that with dd nowadays though, not many synagogues at Centerparcs, ahem, although we've taken her to the Hindu temple in Neasden when we were in London).

We had a nice winter solstice service last year - would definitely do that again. During it we thought about all the other festivals of lights around that time - Hannukah, Diwali, Christmas, Yule.

I do think that schools cover other religions very well these days - it was certainly not even touched on when I was at school. Even the Tweenies did Hannukah and Diwali! DD's nursery have displays too. I think she will grow up with a much broader knowledge of religious traditions that I ever did.

Bit rambly this....

ionesmum · 28/03/2005 11:26

That sounds really good, MP. I grew up with other religions around me - one of my bfs was a Hindu and as a family we had Jewish friends - but here in the sticks there are few minority groups. It will be taught -dd has already looked at diwali at preschool - but there aren't any practicing pupils around to put it in context. I am trying to pursuade my church to link up with another urban church in the same diocese so that we become aware of life away from our comfortable existence, and that the children get to know people from other ethnic groups and faiths -urban churches often serving the whole community not just Christians. But so far this has been resisted because the feeling is that the urban church will feel 'patronised'.

MP, how did you organise your solstice celebration?

morningpaper · 28/03/2005 11:45

We also lack multi-faith examples due to our geographical location! That a great idea (about the linking up with urban churches). We are also in the sticks. I suppose the main problem for small parish is that we are trying to link up with other local churches (due to lack of priests) and we don't think much beyond our own crisis de jour...

Found a solstice service on the internet and contacted the (Unitarian) minister who wrote it - compiled my own based on that and invited friends etc. Held it at 4.30 so it was dark and had a yule fire and lots of other relevant symbolism. CAT me and I'll send you the order of service for your information if you like.

Snugs · 28/03/2005 12:04

mp - can I be really cheeky and ask for a copy of that as well please? I am a solitary and have only every celebrated alone or in impromptu groups of friends/family. I would be interested to read a 'service' to see how it compares to my instinctive celebration IYSWIM.

You can email me on antlxstew @ yahoo.co.uk or I can CAT you if you prefer.

TIA

(feel free to send mildly abusive email to same address if you'd rather I stop sticking my nose in )

ionesmum · 28/03/2005 14:50

Thanks, MP, will be in touch .

Do you have a lot of experience of Unitarinaism? One of my tutors was a Unitarian who converted to CofE. He had about three brains and made Rowan Williams look like Jade Goody.