Christians - a question for you.

[ICanHazANewDoctah]

Do you ever not like what you believe, but you really do honestly believe it? I'm feeling like that right now, and I'd really like to just blow a raspberry to it all, but I do honestly believe it's true so I'm stuck.

I just wondered if any other Christian knew what I'm talking about?

(Athiests, I love you to pieces, the plain speaking SGB especially, but try and hold back from the usual on this thread, ta muchly )

I know what you mean - if I could just choose not to believe, I'd be very tempted, as it can be a right hassle and makes things more complicated. I'd be happy to think that everything could be explained by science and there was nothing which could not be worked through rationally - it would suit me down to the ground.

But I do believe, and if I believe then I have to take it seriously, and can't just ignore it and pretend I never noticed.

I'm curious as to what it is you don't like. Is it a general or specific thing?

AMiS, yes, that's a good way of putting it.

AlderTree, grace is something bugging me at the moment. I mean, in one sense I love the idea that heaven is unearned and a free gift. But man it would be so much nicer to just believe that good people get a reward for being good.

Christ's death on the cross is such a horrible, barbaric thing, and I know that's the point, but blimey, it's depressing.

I want to believe the best about human nature, but every day I'm reminded that we're all messed up by sin to some degree and that's ruddy depressing too.

I listen to what RevJustabout explains about her beliefs, and they're all very reasonable and nice, and I really would love to think like that, but I'm stuck because that kind of thing is generally just what sensible, kind human beings think up anyway, but it doesn't really square with 'revealed' religion.

It comes back to authority, really, I suppose. Which leaves me back where I started with this months and months ago, actually. Meh.

Is there a particular bit of it that gives you trouble? I struggle with a lot of what "organised Christianity" teaches, but I'm lucky enough to be in a liberal church and have studied enough theology to make my own choices about a lot of it. Personally, I think that Christianity is in a state of flux at the moment, and a lot of "how we've always done things" is being reconsidered - at least by some sections of the church! I don't mean we can just throw out the parts we don't like, but in the same way as the Reformation took a look at all the "stuff" that had got attached to Christianity, we can re-evaluate tradition in the light of things like science and psychology, and our changed view of what "equal under God" means, and think about how that should affect the way we live as Christians.

I have to admit, I really don't get WHY Jesus had to die for us. I know all about sins and throwing open the gates of heaven, and sacrifice and resurrection and all the reasons which make up why, but I STILL don't get WHY!!!!

There's a fantatic book by Miroslav Volf on Grace, can recommend it. Much MUCH better than Philip Clancey!!!!

You know, I think it's largely me thinking that if I could just jettison the 'faith' thing, then things would be better.

I just can't work out whether or not it's my faith exacerbating the issues, or being the cause of the issues in the first place.

I'm in this place where I can try and squidge what I believe about a bit, but it hardly seems worth doing, because I know deep down that all I'm doing is trying to make something to suit me, and I might as well just not bother with it if I'm making it up anyway. The only reason I believe as I do is because I believe it's been revealed by someone other than me, iyswim.

Left to my own devices, I'd not bother trying to squish myself into a mould created by others or myself. I'd just do what I thought was best, according to me. But I've always royally messed up when I've done that, so I'm not really any further on.

SO, do you actually have faith because you "feel it" inside of you, or is it more that other people say it's so?

I beleive we must be guided by what we feel inside, as I believe that is God's way of speaking to us. If we feel something is not right, He is telling us to look more closely and address the issues.

For example, I know my Evangelical friend has issues with homosexuality. Becuase she believes in the Bible as ultimate word. But my belief is that God tells mne to focus on the love and everything will become clear, and that in turn lads to tolerance. I truly believe that even if I mess u my faith badly by using approach, it is one that will ot lead to any har for anyone else.

Listen to your inner voice and be guided by it and where it leads you.

AMiS, a bit of both. I believe because I've long been convinced it's true. I'd love to be able to follow my heart, but I don't trust myself in the slightest.

I don't think I'd have any chance of believing if I didn't feel that presence of something "else" inside of me - it's the thing which makes me know that it is real. For me, it's a question of listening to it, and learning to recognise what is "me" and what is "other". I can usually work it out, and spot the difference between what I want to hear and what is actually God. But to do that you have to spend some time in quietness and really listen/feel/whatever so that you can spot the difference - you have to be able to stop all the normal fretting thoughts in order to be still enough. Once you get the hang of it, you'll be able to do it without as much conscious effort, but it does take practice.

Once you know what is you and what isn't, you can decide what to do about it.

I think I know where you are coming from or at least I have similar thoughts about how it would be easier not to believe in anything. Atheism seems so simple. Don't believe in anything so you don't need to think about it and you don't even to have to have any proof because, we are told, there is no proof to provide.

However, I don't think it is that simple, I do think God does exist and I have to believe.

The difficult bit is the faith, believing that your belief makes a difference and that you need to let God guide you. You mentioned authority and that is the difficult part, handing over authority to a greater being who knows better than me what is good for me. It isn't easy having to consider God in everything you do.

Hi there.

My heads is a bit messed up with something else at present but I am reading with interest becasue all this about grace and inner feeling and such like is the reason I had to admit to myself I was not truly Christian because my inner voice/feeling direction was uncomfortable with somethings - like issue of responsibility for my actions, others faiths, homosexuality I could go o. I had to conclude that the best match I could manage was Jesus exisited as a great teacher along with other great teachers and we can learn from all, somehow all paths lead to god and enlightenment.

I will be back but have tea to sort out and the thing messing with my head to deal with. Ironically is kind of related to this but I have to go.

I agree too that it would be so much easier not to believe and believing is a right hassle and makes things more complicated - but then again, in the long run, letting God guide you and trusting in Him, is actually, a much easier task, once you've let go, IYKWIM.

I think I'm quite a reluctant believer, but what keeps me a believer still is what I feel inside me - the faith, God, etc. It's a bit like pain - you neither see it, nor hear it, not taste it .. but how you know that it's there, you feel it.

I think it's the difficulty in finding the place between 'revealed religion' and simple agnosticism for me.

I don't know how to do this kind of faith that I see so many people have on here, whereby it fits in with the things that make sense and the bits that don't you just jettison. I'm not judging those that do that, I'm just saying I don't know how to do it. Either it's true from the first dot to the lastline, or it's not, iyswim.

I've tried, but I can't get away from this idea that I'm just making it all up anyway.

'Make it up as you go along' does sound a little odd on the surface and I see what you mean about the either it is true or it is not thing.

For me it is more a case not so much as believing in anything but seeing that their is wisdom for life in various places. That combined with my reverence of nature and search for truth is pretty much how I see myself. So I suppose it is more of a philosophy than a religion.

I find it helpful to understand that unlike some religions our books are not the direct word of God. This means that flawed humans, especially men, have had a hand in them.

It's also helpful to understand that there are a vast number of different Christianities, currently, and combining those in the past.

The idea that a religion is fixed is a fallacy, it changes as society does.

My own personal belief is that the Gospels are the most important thing. The other stuff has some good bits, but it's important to recognise flaws and allegory etc.

Our version of Christianity is that it's what Jesus said that is important, how he lived, his message. Even though those were filtered through years before they were formalised, and some accounts were ignored, there has to be a truth at the heart of it. That really what we should be doing consists of love, love and kindness for everyone regardless, for we are all humans and in this together.

My view really is that we are God's children, and like children the real world is revealed a little at a time. So as science makes advances we understand more of our physical world. So we go from God as a man in the sky who created this one world, to a God that created many and is of a form we have no understanding of... yet.

And as for grace, well really, I think part of it is to stop us getting too big for our boots. Sure I give plenty to charity and treat everyone like they're a human being because they are, but to use that as a basis for assuming I'm somehow better. That feels wrong. God has shown he can do the ultimate in forgiveness, but that is abstract to us. What we can know is that God still loves those we hate, and that is rather humbling and forces us to look at ourselves. At the beginning even the worst of us was a baby who could do no wrong. Maybe God understands that the suffering inflicted by evil people are to God more like the reactions of a baby that knows no better. (Just starting to think "aloud" here!) What I do believe is that I am happier than those people doing horrible things to others and so in that regard I am being "rewarded".

I take time every day to feel God's presence. Not to ask for anything, not even asking to feel God's presence! Just freeing my mind and opening myself up. I always feel more Christian at Christmas than I do at Easter. It's the hope and kindness and new beginning I like to focus on, rather than sin.

Not that I'm saying anyone else should feel like this. I think religious variety is God's plan, because we are so different it takes a different way of teaching us to make us understand.

Yes, I do end up being argued with by Christians and atheists alike!! But ultimately, isn't it the way we live rather than exactly what we believe that matters?

Good point Summat. I have found I have more in common with some Christians than I do other polytheist types and sometimes it is the reverse. I guess the hunt for meaning is a case of where are we more likely to find people who think like ourselves in order to share our thinking which seems to be a basic human need. Mumsnet being a community for people who are all mums as well as whatever else we may be and we find help from that.

Icanhaz - the fact you do still beleive seems like a good starting point to me. I don't think God made us to be robots who just did and accepted as we were told without questioning. the bible is full of people who did not want to submit to God and fought it all the way (I am not a bible scholar and would love to give an example here, David pops into my head but I could be wrong)and in the Christian community.
The way I see it is that it is a relationship with God and with that there is a huge amount of trust, and sometimes it is so hard to continually find that trust, especially when there's bits of the bible which are quite hard to accept. I agree with what summatannowt said about that.

very helpful post summat - thanks