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Philosophy/religion

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Jesus wasn't ACTUALLY born on 25th December 2008 years ago, was he???!

114 replies

Alambil · 03/12/2008 15:55

RE issue at school.

It's a C of E school and I was asked this in RE today, so I said

"well, no - we aren't sure exactly what day he was born on, but the festival of lights was at the time, so the Christians use this to remember the birth of Jesus because they believe Jesus is the light of the world."

It transpires that one MUST tell the children that Jesus was born on Christmas day. As in 25th December. Because word of mouth from the time of his birth confirms this

Is it me, or is that a tad ..... false?!

OP posts:
AnnVan · 03/12/2008 17:52

ScottishMummy - you say you respect others' right to believe. Yet why do you refer to them as whacky? You are unbelievably insulting, and disrespectful. I don't go to church but I don't go round insulting and disparaging those who do. To each his own.

RubberDuck · 03/12/2008 17:54

The historical evidence of Jesus' existence actually isn't necessarily straight forward, although it seems likely there was at least one (possibly several) Jewish teachers around called Yeshua. There's lots of evidence that many aspects of the stories told about Jesus were borrowed from neighbouring religions and cultures which may or may not be mythological in origin rather than historical

Did Jesus Christ exist? is a fairly good overview.

Soprana · 03/12/2008 17:59

Niecie, these people appear to have been offended by ScottishMummy.

Example 1

I don't believe in many religions- I wouldn't be deliberatly offensive to those who do believe though- there's just no need for it

Example 2

There is no call for insulting people in that manner regardless of your personal beliefs.

If ScottishMummy has been rude, or offensive, I can find you a few examples, in this very thread, of others who don't agree with her, also being rude. Only they're believers, so their righteous indignation seems to be allowed.

devoutsceptic · 03/12/2008 18:09

It is utter nonsense and really rahterstupid to assert that the evidence for he existence of the biblical jesus is the same as the evidence for Alexander the Great or even more absurdly, Napoleon. Jesus may have existed, but if he did, then he was, I think, a decent, but ultimately either a sad and deluded, and even mentally ill person, or a cunning liar.

thisisyesterday · 03/12/2008 18:12

why is it stupid? all of these people DID exist.

not disputable. Jesus existed. fact,.
so did alexander the great and napoleon.
I am not sure what is stupid about saying that???

whether or not he was mentally ill or the son of God well, we'll never know will we? but that isn't what is being debated here is it?

devoutsceptic · 03/12/2008 18:13

No, not a fact.

AtheneNoctua · 03/12/2008 18:14

Soprano, this was a thread about the date of his birth and how one particular school is insisting teacher tell the children something that is actually disputable, when scottishmummy jumped in with

"immaterial when so called jesus was born,he doesnt exist. at best a pleasant fairy tale. "

And that comment turned the thread round a sharpp corner and things got a unpleasant.

Now, I for one think her first post on this thread was neither relative nor in good taste. And I wonder why she felt compelled to type it, if not to come along and tell us poor deceived christians what fools we are.

Niecie · 03/12/2008 18:27

Oh Soprano, give it up. SM has gone and you are defending her for nothing. Her tone from her first post was sneering. She had nothing useful to say, she just wanted to start a ruck which she has now done.

For goodness sake, even Richard Dawkins acknowledges there as a guy called Jesus existed (Atheists for Jesus), he just doesn't think he is the Son of God. Fair enough.

And as a result of all this Lewisfan has gone and I won't get to find out how old the children were.

devoutsceptic · 03/12/2008 18:29

When disputing an exact date of birth it is relevant to suggest that there is little or no really solid evidence that the 'person' under discussion ever existed at all.

devoutsceptic · 03/12/2008 18:29

When disputing an exact date of birth it is relevant to suggest that there is little or no really solid evidence that the 'person' under discussion ever existed at all.

Alambil · 03/12/2008 18:43

They are 9/10.

Teacher panicking that kids will go home and say I've said Christmas isn't when Jesus was born which is NOT what I said.

I said it's the time we CELEBRATE it but his actual date of birth perhaps wasn't 25.12.0000!!

OP posts:
Niecie · 03/12/2008 18:46

I would be perfectly happy with what you said as a parent and I think you are right - the teacher is being false.

I also think that 9/10 yr olds could stand a discussion on this. I am pretty sure that my father in law (a methodist minister) has discussed this with DS1 and he is only 8.

I also think this is the sort of reaction by a teacher that gives faith schools a bad name actually.

Soprana · 03/12/2008 18:47

I don't know ScottishMummy from Adam, (if you'll pardon the biblical term) and I've no special interest in defending her personally. What I am speaking up for is the right to state a belief (or unbelief) without being silenced by the so-called offense taken by believers. It seems you just want to shut anyone up who has the bad taste to disagree with you.

I'm sure ScottishMummy went cos she'd better things to do, like make the tea, or clean the litter tray out.

I almost wish I was sticking around too, to be further enlightened, but, as I said, life's too short, and I got stuff to do.

morningpaper · 03/12/2008 19:09

Well, the argument that Jesus was 'invented' is extraordinary - there are something like 30,000 scraps of papyrus with stories about him and his followers - it would be a very impressive scheme to come up with, especially without Facebook 'n' all

And if you were going to INVENT some sort of God figure, you'd have thought they could come up with something more impressive TBH

devoutsceptic · 03/12/2008 19:11

Only if you assume every scrap is a/authentic and b/truthful and c/referring to the same person (when they don't use the same name or circumstances at all)
there are plenty of Jesus-like gods in history. Born of virgins, performing miracles etc. None of it is exactly new.

devoutsceptic · 03/12/2008 19:12

Jesus like gods

devoutsceptic · 03/12/2008 19:14

origins of the Jesus-myth

devoutsceptic · 03/12/2008 19:16

Krishna of India

The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah Krishna number in the hundreds, particularly when the early Christian texts now considered apocrypha are factored in. It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was ?Christna,? which reveals its relation to ?Christ.? Also, in Bengali, Krishna is reputedly ?Christos,? which is the same as the Greek for ?Christ? and which the soldiers of Alexander the Great called Krishna. It should be further noted that, as with Jesus, Buddha and Osiris, many people have believed and continue to believe in a historical Krishna. The following is a partial list of the correspondences between Jesus and Krishna:
--Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki (?Divine One?) on December 25.
--His earthly father was a carpenter, who was off in the city paying tax while Krishna was born.
--His birth was signaled by a star in the east and attended by angels and shepherds, at which time he was presented with spices.
--The heavenly hosts danced and sang at his birth.
--He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
--Krishna was anointed on the head with oil by a woman whom he healed.
--He is depicted as having his foot on the head of a serpent.
--He worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
--Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love, and he ?lived poor and he loved the poor.?
--He castigated the clergy, charging them with ?ambition and hypocrisy . . . Tradition says he fell victim to their vengeance.?
--Krishna?s ?beloved disciple? was Arjuina or Ar-jouan (Jouhn).
--He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
--He gave his disciples the ability to work miracles.
--His path was ?strewn with branches.?
--In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
--Krishna was killed around the age of 30, and the sun darkened at his death.
--He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven ?in the sight of all men.?
--He was depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet, as well as having a heart emblem on his clothing.
--Krishna is the ?lion of the tribe of Saki.?
--He was called the ?Shepherd of God? and considered the ?Redeemer,? ?Firstborn,? ?Sin-Bearer,? ?Liberator,? ?Universal Word.?
--He was deemed the ?Son of God? and ?our Lord and Savior,? who came to earth to die for man?s salvation.
--He was the second person of the Trinity.
--His disciples purportedly bestowed upon him the title ?Jezeus,? or ?Jeseus,? meaning ?pure essence.?
--Krishna is to return to judge the dead, riding on a white horse, and to do battle with the ?Prince of Evil,? who will desolate the earth.
Mithra of Persia

--Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
--He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
--He had 12 companions or disciples.
--Mithra?s followers were promised immortality.
--He performed miracles.
--As the ?great bull of the Sun,? Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
--He was buried in atomb and after three days rose again.
--His resurrection was celebrated every year.
--He was called ?the Good Shepherd? and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
--He was considered the ?Way, the Truth and the Light,? and the ?Logos,? [Word] ?Redeemer,? ?Savior? and ?Messiah.?
--His sacred day was Sunday, the ?Lord?s Day,? hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
--Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
--His religion had a eucharist or ?Lord?s Supper,? at which Mithra said, ?He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.?
--?His annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration.?

Furthermore, the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced . . .
. . . Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier Pagan mystery religions.
Zoroaster/Zarathustra

--Zoroaster was born of a virgin and ?immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.?
--He was baptized in a river.
--In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom.
--He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
--He began his ministry at age 30.
--Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and ?holy wind.?
--He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.
--He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse.
--He had a sacred cup or grail.
--He was slain.
--His religion had a eucharist.
--He was the ?Word made flesh.?
--Zoroaster?s followers expected a ?second coming? in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 CE and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.

morningpaper · 03/12/2008 19:22

Of course there are similarities between all sorts of religious figures

There are only a limited number of "diety" like characteristics one can think of - if God appeared in the form of a small jam doughnut it would not be very impressive, would it?

There weren't pitching for an original idea

morningpaper · 03/12/2008 19:23

And most are referred to in terms of impressive animals such as Lions - they originated from cultures where such things were important symbols

"The Hamster of Judah" does not have the same symbolic impact

devoutsceptic · 03/12/2008 19:23

No, I agree Jesus isn't a hugely original idea. But that's because it is a myth derived from other myths.

Niecie · 03/12/2008 19:26

Lol at 'small jam donuts'

Makes a change from the Spaghetti Monster!

bloss · 03/12/2008 19:51

Message withdrawn

UnquietDad · 03/12/2008 19:55

Well, an influential prophet called Jesus Christus or something very like it probably did exist in 1st Century Palestine. There are plenty of sources. But it would be surprising if accounts of his life and actions hadn't been corrupted and exaggerated, to be honest.

ScottishMummy · 03/12/2008 19:59

hells bells that is the last time i make a wee foray onto P/R/S man can you ladies flame and be very unpleasant

yes siree,there will be no resolution to to the person who cited the holocaust non-believers as comparale to non belief of god/jeses - tsk that was a realy bad taste analogy.given that you dont know me or my circumstances.you invoked godwins rule
this one.evidently we have diametrically opposed views.fair enough.but you are all touchy

fwiw.please dont assume atheism of me either.i didnt say that.also don't assume sinister motives because we dont agree

just makes you think you seem unable to have any kind of discussion,let alone a robust one.i dont have any particular issue with any of this.i spontaneously stoated in