Sunday school stress - bit rambly and mad probably

[mrsgboring]

Not sure if this is quite the right section. We are very regular attenders at church: self, DH and DS who is 3. Church provides a toddler area (carpeted bit with toys where the pews are turned round to face inwards). It's been great and DS loves it. He also just loves being in church, listening to the music and seeing all the people. It's a very welcoming church, where you are practically not even allowed to apologise for your child's noise because they are made so welcome.

Okay so part of the reason it's like this is because of a team of incredibly charismatic and talented leaders of Sunday School, whose children are mostly teenage and they fought all the battles on our behalf when they were young parents.

The problem is, that one of our Sunday School leaders now wants DS to attend Sunday School and he doesn't want to go - mostly because he enjoys being in church too much. I am now being told the "toddler area" is for babies and she doesn't want DS endangering them (there has never even been close to an incident and DS is supervised by two adults). She nags me about it at the beginning and sometimes the end of every service now, and I'm starting to feel DS is unwelcome in church, which has reduced me to tears the past two Sundays.

If DS is disruptive, I take him out. He doesn't disturb the congregation. Previously it was always accepted practice for us and other parents that we could join Sunday School at any time. We've always been made to feel welcome and the Sunday School teacher who has a problem with DS hasn't ever complained about him disrupting the Sunday School sessions. However, I've decided that we won't come late to a Sunday School again, in case that's at the root of the problem. Unfortunately this means that if he gets restive in the sermon and long talky bits (it's after all the music he loves) I will have to either freeze in the rain outside or take him to our car, which will mean the end of church for us, no communion for me, and no chance of a loo which I usually need at 18 weeks pregnant.

Am feeling so sad about this. This woman is incredibly involved in all youth activities in our church and also runs a toddler group which I'd like to keep coming to. So I don't want to get into a standoff with her, but honestly can't spend the beginning and ends of services quietly crying to myself. Nor do I want to drag my DS to a Sunday school when he really wants to be in church (and so do I)

Incidentally, the sign on the toddler corner is "Under 5s and their carers" so I don't think I'm going against some long held church policy by allowing him to play in the same place as babies.

And if you've read all that lot, you deserve a medal.

So is it the case that you would prefer to have him in the toddler bit at the back of church, and if he is restless/disruptive then you would take him out to Sunday School?

Or do you want him to be in the toddler area all the time (in which case I don't understand the freezing int he rain outside bit?).

I would prefer to have him in the toddler bit and if he is restless take him to the Sunday School building (because it is inside and has toilets) but I don't want to intrude on Sunday School. In the past I've tried to stay out of their way (you have to go through the Sunday School room to get to the changing area) but actually been invited in and welcomed by the leaders there.

I don't want to disrupt Sunday School and I can personally see that someone would object to having a child turning up half way through a session. But if I don't disrupt Sunday school, I can't see what she has to complain about and maybe I wouldn't feel so guilty.

I never wanted to take him to Sunday School for half a session but is standard practice in our church as there's no other inside space to remove children to if you want them out of church.

I am hyper worried about him disrupting church now as well, as I don't want anyone to have any cause for complaint about what we're doing - hence taking him out if there's even a little bit of noise.

But now I don't want to go to Sunday School and get moaned at for not coming earlier, so it's freezing in the rain for us.

Does that make it clearer?

Personally, I would ask her whether there have been any comments from mums of babies - if they are genuinely concerned about a bigger child then that's something you should take into consideration. But if not, I'd tell her politely but firmly that your son prefers to stay in church for the service, and that's what you plan to do. I'd also ask whether it is disruptive to the Sunday School sessions to come in part way through - obviously you don't want to make things difficult for them, but I'd have thought it wasn't a big issue.

I suspect it's just that she's decided what you ought to do, not that there's any real problem.

FWIW my DS never liked Sunday School and always sat through the service with us - as they get older I think they are less likely to be disruptive, even if they have to sit in a pew, so if he doesn't fancy Sunday School why should he have to go?

So he is welcome in the toddler area, and he is welcome in the Sunday school. But they don't want him to be in the toddler area and then come late into the Sunday School? Or are you trying to do something different with him in the Sunday school area, ie you want to be in the same building as Sunday school but not be part of Sunday School?

3 is VERY young for Sunday School!

As for endangering toddlers - as this has never happened, she hasn't got a leg to stand on. If this continues to be a problem and she won't listen to reason, I'd raise it with the vicar.

If she isn't careful she'll put your DS off Sunday school for life!

If its any comfort, I had a "run in" with our church over my DS (now 7, but was 6 at the time) using the toddler area. I nearly quit the church over it, my son has Asperger Syndrome and often plays with toys that are too young for him. Fortunately they listened to reason.

Why doesn't he want to go to Sunday School? Have you tried it with him (usually parents of very little ones have to sit in for a few sessions until they settle).

Sunday School should be a lot more fun and productive for a small child than a church service which is way over their heads. They can get their fix of church during the part of the service they are in, and during All-Age services.

The children at our church go to Sunday School at 3. I used to go with my two until they were happy to be left but it is like pre-school so they were fine. DH and I used to take it in turns to go out with the boys so we both got a bit of time to actually listen to the service.

Whether I would take your DS out would depend on whether there were different classes for different ages. It would be daunting for a 3 yr old to be in with 11 yr old for example, but if like ours there is a group for 3 to 5 yr olds then it is fine.

You have my sympathy though - it is a very difficult age though - too young to go out, too old to stay in. We are only now coming out of it since DS2 started school and turned 5 in September.

At our church, children move from Creche to Sunday School at 2.5. In SS, they are in a very large group of U7s which breaks out to their own small group of about 10 children.

They love their own groups. Very few children of that age group stay in church. It is usually when they get to about 10 that they start flexing their muscles.

We have loads of adult leaders, university students and older teens who help out with the younger children and can give the ones who are unsettled one-to-one attention. One of the key features of the U7s group is routine - they always do the same things each week, and children thrive on this. If a child goes sporadically they will not feel the same sense of belonging.

I must admit, I have always sent my children to Creche and then onto their groups as early as possible (around 8 weeks). We bend over backwards for children at our church (which is why we have about 300 children on our books), but it is important for parents to be 'fed' also and not to have one eye on a child while trying to follow and complicated sermon.

MrsG, what is the format of your church services and the Sunday School?

When I read your post I wondered if you were at my church - we have a very similar set up with a toddler area at the back and Sunday School from age 3. As it happens, my DS has just turned 3 but (being a typical boy) isn't quite ready for Sunday School yet, so he stays in the toddler area. DD (aged nearly 5) went to Sunday School just before her 3rd birthday, but all children are different, and some take longer to reach a point where they can sit and concentrate without parents to keep them on the straight and narrow.

So at present, church for me is still lurking at the back looking after DS in the creche, hoping he won't make too much noise to disturb the rest of the congregation. Hopefully in a few months time he will be happy to go to Sunday School and not disrupt it - until then I'm having to stick it out. My last "normal" service was about 4 years ago, just before DD started crawling. Since then it has been disruption all the way.

With your particular issue about a helper's expectations of what your DS should be doing, try to explain that he isn't quite ready for Sunday School yet. Having an absolute cut off point at 3 is not taking into account how every child is different.

And you should never feel excluded from church and have to stand outside (raining or not) just because you have children. Jesus welcomed children unreservedly, so should all churches. Small children will make a bit of noise, wriggle about, not quite fit in with adult expectations. Churches should be aware of that, and make accommodations for families with little ones - otherwise no families will come to church!

Sorry if the above has been a bit of a ramble! I just wanted to say that your experience is not unique and that you fully belong in the church and if you are not feeling welcomed then it is through no fault of your own.

Must dash - have to sort out tea for the family.

Best wishes,

Permanent Vacation.

Ladymuck Sorry, it's a bit strange what I'm saying. He is welcome in church, and he is welcome in Sunday School. I don't think it is fair on the leaders for him to come through half way through but they encouraged him to do it, I think because they thought he was going to come over full time. However, he doesn't want to go out. If he is naughty I remove him from church so as not to disrupt the service. The problem is if I try to sneak into the church hall building to use the loo because he then goes into the Sunday School room and I'm faced with either bringing him in (which I'm embarrassed about as I don't think it's fair to keep coming into a session half way through) or drag him away, when they come out and invite him in and then carp at me later for not having brought him over sooner.

The old arrangement was perfect for us. He soaked up the music, saw all the people he knows and walked round the church, then when he got restive I would take him out and he'd come to the end of a Sunday School activity, which was usually colouring in or other artwork. That way he didn't interrupt the teaching bit of the Sunday School. I always stay with him and indeed help out at the Sunday school in a very small way as a reserve leader.

Jesus welcomed little children, PV, but he did not suggest a free-for-all. There is an orderliness to worship, and children are welcomed and well catered for (in the parts of the service where they are expected to be in, and in specific children's groups).

It is such a minefield in church to even mention to parents that there are children's groups as there will always be some people who take offense and read into it that they, and their children, are not welcome in church. The vast majority of times is that the children will get more out of children's groups, and the parents will be able to focus more on worship. It really can be a win-win.

AMuminScotland thank you for this. I am pretty certain there have been no complaints from parents of babies. The irony is that most of the babies in the area have older siblings (older than 3) who often stay in as well - it's just me the Sunday School Teacher picks on, because we are regular attenders and well known to her.

squeakypop he quite likes Sunday School but prefers church. Every week, he attends a toddler group and a Sunday-School-type class for 3 year olds in that same church hall, run by the same Sunday School leader, so I think he gets his fill of it. He only gets one shot at choral music, candles, and the special atmosphere of Church every week, and he likes to experience it.

It's quite a small group of children at Sunday School (because most of the children are in Choir and don't come) so it's usually an all age session or two age groups. Most of the "teaching" bits are aimed at older children than DS and go almost as much over his head as the church service.

Children usually attend Sunday School with a parent until they're ready to go alone (not usually before age 5) so it's not a question of settling him in.

Well you have 2 choices as I see it: avoid taking ds into the Sunday school (presumably dh can look after him if you need the loo), or talk to the teacher and explain that ds won't be starting Sunday school for some time yet, however occasionally it would be helpful to bring him out for a few minutes towards the end of the service.

The worst that can happen is that you are asked not to do the latter. If she does create an issue over whether your ds is allowed in the toddler area then it is time to talk to vicar/pastor/whoever to get clarification. Really no point in crying over it. A quick word at the end of next week's service should do it.

amerryscot I completely take your point and I do not allow DS to disrupt the church service, so I do take him out if he's noisy or naughty. (I don't if he is simply standing at the Altar Rail and I am there whispering into his ear telling him what the Priest is doing and why, which I think is far more valuable for DS educationally than a Sunday School aimed at 7 year olds or thereabouts)

We are a fairly small group of parents and I know that there are issues amongst us of parents not feeling "fed" themselves from the church service. But we don't operate myriad creche and away from parents youth activities - we don't have the numbers. And DS would no way ever leave me at either a creche or a Sunday School so if it were like that I would have to find somewhere else to worship or take turns leaving DS at home with DH.

Ladymuck it is very true I can go to the loo on my own , except when DH is on sidesman duty and can't leave the church or take DS (as happened today - very complicated service today). If he is disruptive I will have to remove him to wind and howling gale for as long as it takes. You're right there is no point in crying over it. Just being pregnant and hormonal.

Thank you, revjustabout I feel a little bit crazy raising it with Church Leadership. Am being a bit hormonal about it all, but you're right, if it persists I should let them know and get their help.

Why can't DH look after DS when he is on duty? I am a sideswoman and would have no problem doing the job with a toddler in tow. It is just a case of being welcoming, and then during the service tending to any needs that arise - nothing too taxing.

I don't have young children now, but when I did have one in the service and had to read, there was always a member of the church family I could fob DD onto for three minutes.

MrsG, I think if you want to raise the issue with anyone, it is the Wardens and the Welcome Team.

If you were at our church, we would be gutted if you did not have a quiet word. We put so much effort into the welcome, but can't do it unless we know what people want. Apart from clergy, we are all volunteers and doing our best.

Does your church have a feedback form where you can raise your concerns or make suggestions anonymously?

Well one, DH can't multitask. Also, there are odd faffy bits of job that have got tacked onto the sidesman's role at our church. Was a sidesman myself before DS - would be very hard to do both and I can understand why DH doesn't want to.