Whenever you start a conversation about religion...

[MrsThierryHenry]

...you always get the same old people flying in with their vitriolic attacks either for or against, yadda yadda yadda thanks for passing by. Maybe I've even been guilty of this at times, but I can't help thinking that it contributes absolutely zilch to what can be a deep and meaningful discussion about a huge and significant subject.

SO can we have a conversation about religion without flying insults?

Okay, here goes:

In a country with a wide range of religious and non-religious beliefs, how can we best express our cultures in a way that is both inclusive and inoffensive? I'm thinking of education, public celebrations, etc. E.g. - some people say that to avoid offence you should have no religion at all in schools, but is 'no religion' really a neutral, 'inoffensive' stance? It seems more like the polar opposite of religion rather than a happy halfway house - it is still a choice in favour of someone's (an atheist/ agnostic's) beliefs about religion.

Is the answer to change our behaviour? Or to change our attitudes towards all religious choices? Or both? Or neither?!

Jesus died for everyone - how is that for inclusive?

I like your thinking Squeaky! Might have to use that line myself...

I'm an English muslim. I try and focus on the similarities between my own beliefs and those of my non-muslim friends and colleagues rather than the differences. I try and learn what is important to them and am open about what I believe when people ask. As a family we celebrate Eid not Christmas, Hannukah, Diwali or any other festivals but that doesn't stop me wishing other people well in their festivities and in being accomodating with swapping shifts at work etc so that people can have time with their families when it is important to them. I will teach my children about other religions but bring them up as muslims although I am happy that as adults they will take the path that God chooses for them whatever that will be. I was at a catholic christening a few weeks ago because they are friends and they asked us to be there. I was not there to participate in the religious ceremony but to witness and support our friends in something that is important to them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can't go far wrong if you treat people with kindness and compassion and in the way you would like to be treated. All religions teach this and that similarity should bind us together even if the others don't.

As far as public celebrations go there are large public celebrations in my area for Christian, Jewish, Hindu and Muslim festivals which is nice. The lights are pretty and other people seem to enjoy them and be more friendly so that's fine with me. Contrary to popular belief and the daily mail headlines muslims in general don't get offended by christmas decorations, christmas carols, nativity plays, toy pigs, bacon flavour crisps or whatever stupid idea so nutcase has come up with this week. We are a bit funny about people that take the piss out of God or any of the prophets (including Adam, Moses, Abraham, Jesus and Muhammed) - although in general most of us reckon God is big enough not to be that bothered by it, it just really isn't very nice to deliberatly try and upset anyone.

That's tolerance ummadam, which I think would be what Jesus, Mohammed et al would have done.

Ummadam: great post. I particularly agree with you about attending religious ceremonies for religions that are not yours: it's about supporting people you love/like in a ritual that's important to them.

I always get a bit put out on the behalf of reasonable Muslims when some or other buckethead starts claiming that all Muslims are offended by other people eating bacon or shops selling Christmas cards or whatever: most people have no problem whatsoever with religious celebrations that don't include insulting other people or attacking them.

Now I am free from religion and will (and do) object to people inflicting religion on others - but that doesn't mean I want to stop people from holding religious beliefs and engaging in religious rituals as long as religious people/organisations can cope with the distinction between public and private space and not try to claim the right to force others to participate or be inconvenienced in public space.

I'm with you on this, ummadam. I'm Jewish.

I would rather my children learn about religion in school, than not learn about it for fear of offending somebody. But I would like them to learn about it in the 'some people believe' way, rather than in a prescriptive 'this is what religion is' manner.

My children go to a non-Jewish school. It is my job to teach them Judaism, with the help of my synagogue.

Their schools are always delighted to have me come in and teach a bit about our festivals. They teach only the Christian festivals and Diwali. I don't recall hearing my dcs mention learning about any other religions. That is a serious lack, and I am always surprised that parents of other, non-Christian, relgions don't get involved in teaching about their own relgions. This is not about proselytising - wwe need to understand each other.

all religion is nuts

Mmm, I think I may have been unclear. I didn't mean that it is my job to teach my children's school Judaism - I mean that it is my job, in a non-Jewish country, to teach my children Judaism.

I am currently in the process of choosing (yes, right, we will get sent where there is a space etc) a primary school for DS and have noted that in both schools they seem to have space for 'talks on different religions'. So I fully intend to request they cover atheism/humanism too. While I personally think all religion is bullshit, I respect the right of people to believe bullshit as long as they behave responsibly - but I do think that public organisations and public spaces need to acknowledge free-from-religion lives and viewpoints as well when they talk about tolerance and diversity.

It is just not possible is it? Here is Mrs ThierryHenry asking for a sensible discussion on religion and we get some super posts.

And then we get the "bullshit". Why? Is it really impossible to talk/think about religion without insults flying?

I didn't get that there were any insults. Solid's opinion is that she personally doesn't believe in religion, but that she believes in the right of people to believe.

A bit like I don't like Republicans, but believe in their right to choose their own political party!

I would much rather that religious celebrations are all inclusive rather than all exclusive - for instance, I don't understand the logic of not calling Christmas Christmas in some primary schools, and rebranding it Winter Holiday for fear of offending other religions.

Why not at least acknowlege all of the important religious celebrations too?

The problem, of course, is that the human race is extremely adept at inventing stories, and extremely willing to believe them. One person's devout belief is another's Crock Of Old Shit. One cannot possibly accommodate, or hope to accommodate, every single belief ever invented by the human race.

The problem with squeakypop's post - or maybe the good thing about it - is that it illustrates this perfectly. If you happen to believe, as I do, that Jesus Christ (or someone with a name very like that) was a historical figure who more-than-likely existed in the way that Julius Caesar or Gandhi did, but didn't have any particular special supernatural or divine powers (because there is no such thing as the "divine")... then it is rather less than "inclusive".

I'm all for letting people have their own beliefs and celebrations if only it would stop there.

The next step is always to teach other people's children that religion is true.

Also the inclusiveness usually only extends to mainstream religions - 'proper' ones.

I love the fact the my kids can learn about other religions in school/preschool. Last week at my childs preschool, all the teachers were dressed in sari's, played indian music etc to celebrate Divali. I hope that it will encourage them to be open minded and respect other religions. When they are older i'd be happy for whatever they choose to believe.

A relative of mine lives in the states and they are not even aload to do the nativity play at school or say Merry christmas, as it's consider offenive to Jew, muslims etc. Happy holidays instead. I think that is sad.

I think it's a great post from ummadam, looking for similarities in religions rather than differences in a negative way.

Myermay (or anyone), I have a serious question. when you say "When they are older i'd be happy for whatever they choose to believe" do you actually mean "out of the 3-4 main, respectable, good, religions" ?

Would it still be ok if they believed in some spirit worshiping, chicken sacrificing, blood drinking, voodoo type of thing?

As a non-practising Jew in a very Christian country (Northern Ireland) with an atheist for a husband, I have already given a lot of thought to how to raise our baby (not due until next June). I remember learning about all sorts of different religions when I was in secondary school in the US. How they worship, what they believe, etc.

I found it fascinating and I hope I give that same fascination to my child.

However, I do not think banning things like saying Merry Christmas or having Nativity scenes removed is a good thing either.

There is no way to cover every religion in the world this time of year. There are too many. So I have no problem with the majority religion being represented all over town. Beside, Christmas decorations are pretty!

onager, that would be a no! wouldn't be too chuffed with that i have to say. Religion doesn't play much of a part in our lives, although i was brought up catholic i'm happy to hear about most religions, there are heaps of things about the catholic church that i disagree with some relgions i find rather crazy but i believe as you mature and get older you have a good sense of what it right and what is wrong and blood drinking etc etc is just odd imo, but each to their own

Thanks, Myermay, I wouldn't be happy with that either so we agree on that.

The thing is that many christians/jews/muslims will say they want religion in schools and part of everyday life, but I think most of them would reject my example above and would not want kids taught that blood drinking/chicken sacrificing was ok.

It seems to me then that most religious people don't really want all religions taught, just the ones they approve of. That is kind of understandable, but if that is the case then they should be more understanding of atheists who feel the same way about their religion.

That's not to say that people shouldn't celebrate all the different festivals (especially big colorful exciting festivals) and not to say they shouldn't believe in it. Just that they should appreciate why some of us don't want to be forced to join in or believe in it.

Well here's what I think.

Schools should teach about all the different major religions, about values and morals and compassion and charity etc but I don't feel that school is the right place for worship. There are plenty of other places for people to practice their religions.

I would also be interested to know why religion also seems to "trump" atheism. I know many people on here will say that this doesn't happen, and it doesn't always. But examples are things like - I would never dream of telling my religious friends' children that when people die they are buried and that's it, yet religious friends have no compunction telling children of athiest parents about heaven. I would never tell a religious person's child that god doesn't exist, yet they would tell mine that god does exist. People seem to be able to be sensitive to the views of other religions, but not to the views of people who do not believe. I find this a bit weird but when I mention it my religious friends just give me a sort of sympathetic look.

onager - if they were kind, considerate, compassionate and tolerant people who went out of their way to help other people and society and not to harm or upset anyone then yes - they can sacrifice as many chickens as they want. I would be disappointed that they did not see the world the way I see it but they would still be my children and I would still love them.

....as a doctor I would have to point out to them that there are very few health benefits and quite a few risks to drinking blood though, nagging medical parent that I am sure to be

lol @ health benefits. Good answer

Still I don't think you can stipulate that religions must teach kindness, consideration and compassion. If all religion is acceptable then it must be acceptable even if it is hateful.

Otherwise you must draw a line between acceptable religions and unacceptable ones. Once you draw the line you are no different than atheists who simply draw it in a different place.

I was baptised CofE. I think I was a true believer till I was about 12 when i has so many questions that didn't seem to be answered. Me and DH are probably non-believers (though I admit I would like to have faith). As far as dd is concerned, I'd like her to make her own mind up.

We don't go to church, apart from to light a candle for those who are no longer with us. State education in Belgium is entireley secular, but with a provision for Catholisism, Protestantism and Judaism. If you don't want this you choose Morals. (At my school they don't seem to cater for Muslims although there are many....)

I would ideally like dd to be educated about all religions...."this is is what such and such believes and this is why". I will try my hardest to do that, though I must admit to not having a lot of that necessary knowledge. I see it as my job therefore to find out.

As far as I'm concerned, only that way do we have educated kids and true equality.