Too much religion in Reception?

[Trifle]

I am not religious and don't particularly believe in anything. To discuss Jesus/God or any such subject matter was not something I ever envisaged having to do age age 4. However, since Ds1 started Reception in September he is increasingly coming home with questions about Jesus. I think this stems from him having a particularly religious teacher who told Ds1 at Christmas that he had to say thank you to God. I'm not sure exactly what he was supposed to be thanking him for or what his understanding of God is. Since then he has talked about going to Heaven when you die, that Jesus was nailed to a cross and bled to death and who/what/why did this happen. As it is just a regular state school I cant see the point in them having any religious instruction and would far rather they concentrate on reading and writing. Exactly how much are schools obliged to tell them about religion at age 4 and are they going overboard. The father of one child in his class is a Vicar so came in one day to give a great talk about Jesus which will obviously be biased due to his own beliefs. It surely has to be confusing to a young mind to be seemingly bombarded with so much information. I've managed to brush most things off and dismiss it all as a fairy story but am getting annoyed that I am put in an awkward position by the school who are drip feeding him bits and pieces which he then wants me to explain.
Is he getting more than his fair share?

Thanks for those links Caligula and Snugs!

Ionesmum.. excellent posting (9.51am). Exactly what I was trying to say last night.. and not putting across very well. Also agree with Roisin. My children question aspects of Christianity all the time. They also question aspects of other faiths which they encounter. I answer them, to the best of my ability, and explain about different beliefs.. and also what I believe to be the case.. which, perhaps strangely enough (seeing as we all go to a Christian Anglican church) does not always fit with what the church teaches. However, as Ionesmum says, Christian teachings are about love and tolerence.. which is very much what I want to portray to my children about the way things are the reason we are here!

This is just MHO, but to not teach my children anything about faith/spirituality would be to like attempting to keep their eyes closed to the reasons that we are all here.. what we are actually doing thing living thing for... what it's all about. For me, it's not about which 'organised religion' they will choose to follow, it's about growing up with spiritual awareness.. learning to understand the larger picture..

For mums who don't want 'religion shoved down their childrens throats', (sorry, can't think of a better way of putting it ).. there is the option of exploring spirituality.. which is part of us all.. or rather we are part of it whether we choose to acknowledge this.. or share this with our children or not. Mimi Doe (who I learn about recently on this site.. thanks Ionesmum.. has some books on this which are excellent. Busy But Balanced and 10 Primciples for Spiritual Parenting. I don't think anyone could describe them as 'religious'.. they are just about living a close, happy family life with your children.. and many suggestions about how to do this. I was brought up with no awareness of the spiritual element of life.. just dragged along to 'boring old church' every Sunday, with me dragging my heels all the way. I have still found my way to an understanding that makes SO much sense to me in the end... whuich has little to do with my early religious influences..(although theycertianly did me no harm.) That's not to say I am living my life as I should be.. far from it.. but I really feel I understand more about 'what it's all about' now.. and my children are growing up with me learning about all this.. which I think is a good thing. (sorry to ramble )

SJ x

SJ - I agree about teaching kids about faith & spirituality, but in general terms. IMO the problem here is that far too many schools are teaching Christianity as fact.

But Snugs if people believe it is fact, why shouldn't they say so? I don't see why a teacher who genuinely believes that Jesus died on a cross and rose again 3 days later in order to save the world, should be forced to say that that's just one opinion, when she believes it to be 100% true. She has a right to express her religious faith and for anyone who has a religious faith, that means talking about it as though it's fact. The same way a Muslim would talk about Muhammed having the word of God revealed to him as fact.

And of course, the rest of us have the right to point out to our children that there is no evidence for some of these "facts", if we feel strongly enough about it.

But that's an argument for no religious instruction in schools at all since it can't be trusted to be impartial or unbiased.

No, I don't think so. I don't expect teachers to be unbiased or impartial, I accept the fact that they are humans with the same biases and prejudices as the rest of us. I just don't think it's that important at primary school age in the same way that I don't think it's particularly important if they happen to be Tory Party or Labour Party activists. But I expect I'd feel very differently if I was passionately religious.

Caligula, totally disagree with teachers leading children to believe that their own personal beliefs are 100% fact. Children are very impressionable at this age and would be inclined to agree with whatever the teacher tells them as they do not know enough to be able to make an informed judgement. I'd be pretty bloody pissed off if his teacher started preaching about the Mormon, Jewish or Jehova etc faiths because she passionately followed one and felt it was her duty to 'spread the word'. They absolutely do not have the right to preach about any one particular religion or mislead children into believing it is fact.

Thank you Trifle. Have written and deleted 3 posts - but you have said it for me.

Agree Trifle.

But if you feel that strongly about it, then you would tell your children that it's not fact, because it would be worth your while.

And again, it would depend on what the teacher was saying, at some stage if it got to the point where you felt what they were saying was intolerable, then you could complain about it and make it clear that you were going to contradict everything this particular teacher says about the subject.

They also tell them Santa Claus is real. But I don't think my kids will still believe that when they are eleven. They may be impressionable at this age, but so what? They grow out of it.

And what about religious freedom? Don't people have the right to express their religious beliefs? Telling them they're not allowed to makes it seem more powerful and important than it is, doesn't it?

Sorry, I'm probably going to go on a bit now, but bear with me.

The DFES have produced a scheme of work for RE (see lockets link) but it is for guidance only on a national level.

Schools have to follow their own LEAs 'agreed local syllabus'for RE. It's the only bit of the curricullum that is decided upon at a local level, not by government, and as explicit RE it is compulsory to teach it in state primaries. Different LEAs tend to have different slants on this, generally dependent on the community they serve (for example Somerset's syllabus has a heavier bias towards Christianity than Birmingham's, which has more indepth units on Sikhism,Hinduism etc presumably as it serves a more multi-ethic population).

For me, as an atheist, I will send my children to state schools with no faith affiliation. I actively want them to learn about religion, who believes what, how they worship, how it affects their daily lives etc etc as my children will be growing up in a multi-faith society and I want them to understand and show respect for others' beliefs. However, I would be very annoyed if a Reception teacher stated her own beliefs as fact to a 4 or 5 year old. I agree that it's fine to say "I believe that...", but not "This is how it is".

There is still a debate going on as to whether Reception should follow the locally agreed syllabus' for RE anyway, as they have been taken out of National Curriculum and given their own play-based Foundation Stage. The 'learning goals' that they need to have covered are simply

• Begin to know about their own cultures and beliefs and those of other people
• Understand that people have different needs, cultures and beliefs that need to be treated with respect.

To quote from one LEA's guidelines..
"It is important for young children to approach early years experiences related to religious education with open attitudes and interest and to feel free to talk about the place of religious experience in their own lives. In order that this can happen it is necessary to foster an environment within each setting where children can appreciate that everyone is of equal importance, where diversity is celebrated and where children can develop an understanding that the needs of everyone should be treated fairly and equally. Within such a learning environment, cultural and religious diversity is regarded as positive and children can feel that they are able to express their viewpoints and beliefs in safety."

How can young children do that when an adult is stating her own religious views as fact!

I would complain.

"Children are very impressionable at this age and would be inclined to agree with whatever the teacher tells them as they do not know enough to be able to make an informed judgement."

Very true - but that applies to things that we tell them, things they hear from friends and things they see/hear in the news........and not always to do with religion.

As mentioned below since I've left school I've discvoered plenty of things which I'd been taught as 'fact' but which aren't 100% 'fact' at all!!! But it hasn't made me any worse a person, just given me a broader insight into what people believe about things in general.

Bee3 I think that's what I mean. "I believe that..." is imo interchangeable with "It is fact" in a young child's mind. "I believe that" is a good formulation as they go up the school years though, and the difference between belief and fact becomes more graspable to them.

Caligula, I think in most circumstances you're right - young children do find it difficult to tell the difference, and probably aren't bothered either way , but I think that religion is a stickier matter.

I've taught Reception in inner-London, and there were plenty of children, especially Hindu and Muslim, who already knew quite a bit about their own religions at that age. To have an important adult essentially tell them that their beliefs are wrong (eg. Jesus is the son of God, so your religion can't be right) must be very confusing and upsetting.

Trifle: I've just read this thread with great interest.

What questions that he has asked worry you? Seems a bit harsh to worry about a 4 year old believing in heaven, and the rest seems fairly inoffensive.

I don't understand the problem with learning Bible stories - which ones are you worried about? (Obviously the one where the two daughters get their father drunk to have sex with him might be a bit inappropriate...) I'm not sure how they are different from other stories - most of them just have a message about good vs. evil just like many similar fairy/myth tales.

Has your son learnt anything about other faiths?I would be worried if he was learning nothing about other faiths. Are there multi-faith displays in the school etc?

(Slightly off topic: I have to admit I find it odd that learning about faiths arouses such strong opinions but when I objected to my daughter being told about Santa Claus as though it was fact, I was told I was robbing her of her innocent childhood! And why are we so scared of religion that the word 'brainwashing' has been v. inappropriately bandied about ... ?!!)

Another thing which occurs to me...drifting back to the computer to avoid Fimbles...

Unless the teacher is talking about God and Jesus in the context of Christmas, for example, in an educational context, then she has no business talking about her personal beliefs at all IMO. I feel it is out of place - I wouldn't volunteer info about my religion/sexuality/political beliefs to my classes and I wouldn't expect my child to come home and tell me what Miss said about these things either.

I think a lot of people have deeply held views about religion and would rather talk these things through at home. I wouldn't be happy at ds being told Jesus was nailed to a cross so that ds could go to heaven, especially if this was presented as fact by someone I expect him to listen to, respect and obey in school.

I don't object to bible stories - just the way they are taught as the truth were as other religions/beliefs are put across as some people believe that...

It implies that those who believe anything other then the bible are deluded and wrong.

Snugs: If you are sure that this is what is going on, then you need to complain. I would discuss it with the teacher in the first place and see if that helps. You might find out he's a Sikh or something.

morningpaper - think I am already known at the school as Militant Mum, cos I always seem to be arguing about something

Still debating with DH if this is another thing I want to raise. Have complained already about assembly (see post Thurs 12.11am) but it is the lesson situation now.

But are they taught as the truth in non-denominational schools? Sometimes kids present stuff as truth because that's how they've perceived it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that that's how it's being taught.

Just to put my twopennyworth in here!!

Trifle I was in a similar situation to you last yeat. My dd started school and particularly after easter came back telling me all about Jesus on the cross etc. Now I am jewish and dh is nominally CofE and my kids are jewish. So firstly what I did was ask her to explain (to the best of her ability) what the score was, and what she was being told. I then explained that SOME people believed in Jesus and some didn't. She told me I was wrong - as it MUST be true as MR XXX said so (the head!) So I made an appointment with the head to discuss it. He explained something interesting in that kids when they FIRST go to school do learn the bible stories, but becasue they are so 'shocking' they ALWAYS seem to tell the parents about them. What she wasn't coming home to tell me was the boring stories of Moses in the desert and Mohammed!! This suprised me as I was sure (it being a CofE school) that they must be saying far more than I realised.

However what it did make me think is that I now had to counteract some of the Christian teachings with increasing the Judiam within our home/life as I was avoiding the whole religious thing as long as I could.

Now my kids still hear the biblical stuff at school and sung hymns and carols about baby jesus etc, but they also know that Mummy does not believe in Jesus (except as a person) and simply believes in God and being Jewish. We now go to a jewish group (which we started with other like minded parents) once a month to give our kids their own identity.

I guess if you were Atheist you would have to explain the 'Some people believe this, and others believe that' type question and perhaps, if it is important to you, spend time teaching your kids what you want them to know.

This whole thing has taught me that I need to be teaching my kids morals/values/religion if I want them to be a particular way. School should not be expected to do that.

So saying my latest giggle is that the kids say prayers over their lunchtime sandwiches!! Since Judiasm also has prayers for food, thanking god for what we eat is great in my book (provided it is just god, not Jesus )

PS Snugs they are allowed to say Christian things as the TRUTH in assembly, but they are categorically NOT allowed to suggest this in lessons. I would complain again if they are not listening to you. Or ask if you could come in and talk about pagans!!

Crunchie: fascinating stuff. It makes sense that because we tend to AVOID religious talk then it is all new and exciting when children DO hear it at school.

My local CofE school has a very multi-faith approach to RE - so much so that the local 'christian' parents have been recently objecting with petitions etc. lol!

Think I will have to arrange to sit in on some lessons and find out exactly how they come across.

I'm an atheist RE secondary teacher. Christianity is the main religion taught and RE lessons have top comprise of 50% christianity. Religions are not taught equally in nondemoninational schools at all.
It is easy for me to do the whole "Some people believe this, other believe that" as I dont believe. I have heard some teachers talk about their faith as fact but the kids always question that immediately.
RE is a great opportunity for discussion with kids able to express their own views and for what they think to be valid.

I have nothing to do with worship in the school. FOr an RE teacher to do so in a non demoninational school to be forced to be involved in worship would be wrong. I wouldnt do it.

By law kids have to learn RE until they are 18 (if carry on until the 6th form). Few schools enforce this but most teach it until the end of year 11.

Personally I think kids should have to learn about other religions and culture to 14 and then be able to choose whether they do it at GCSE. It is awful having to teach kids a subject where not all do an exam in it.

Kids seem to be mainly influenced in their ideas by their parents and peers and there is an awful lot of prejudice which is why it's so important they learn about religions in a less biased way rather than reading their dad's news of the world.
I often hear awful comments about Islam where kids have been told appalling things by their parents which are not true.