How does Catholicism fail girls/women?

[Spidermama]

I'm particularly interested in the views of Catholics and lapsed Catholics here.

theSuburbanDryad - I use lots of different versions as I find that interesting too! Good News, NIV, New Jerusalem and Oxford. Where's the passage about James being Jesus' brother you mention? I'd be interested to have a read but I suspect the "official" line would be that if you read it as "cousin" instead of brother it would work.
As for the dinosaur fossils - I'd never heard of that!! To me they are more a sign of a fantastic creative God!

I feel sorry for my MIL. A 'good' Catholic all her life, but now feels unable to take communion because she's divorced and living with her boyfriend. How can people be excluded because they are in a loving relationship like this?

She tells me it's her own decision not to take communion, but am I right in thinking she isn't supposed to take it because of her situation? Or does it vary from church to church? And which bit would be the deal breaker. 1. The fact she's divorced or 2. the fact she's living with a man but not married?

I do really feel for your MIL. Oficially the Catholic Church does not recognise divorce as it sees marriage as a sacrament involving life long vows. Therefore the fact that she is a divorcee doesn't exclude her from communion as the Church doesn't see her as divorced (IYSWIM!) What would officially exclude her from communion is the fact that she is having a sexual relationship with someone other than her "husband". This can seem very harsh, especially if the marriage was an abusive one. In such cases there is always the option to look at annulments (that the Church does recognise). These can be very involved but I do know of a couple of people who have had annullments and gone on to remarry.

In practice, if someone's situation isn't known by the priest it is their decision as to whether to receive communion or not. In some instances where the situation is known I am sure some priests would over look it if they were sympathetic to the individual circumstances.

This is a v difficult area though and I'll finish this post as I started - I really genuinely feel for your MIL.

Ses I really can't remember! That's awful isn't it! I know that my pastor used to refer to James as Jesus' half-brother, as of course they had different fathers!

I will try to dog out my NIV New Testament and have a riffle through for you!

Answering OP-Catholicism has riddled me with guilt

I am a divorced Catholic-but then i am not really as i married in a Registry office so therefore have never been married at all!!

Spidermama, I really feel for your MIL. I'm divorced/remarried, and I felt in all conscience I could not receive communion in the RCC after I married. I used to be devout RC. I'm now devout C of E, but only after much soul-searching, and a sympathetic high church vicar (who I am sure, rejoices in his poaching an arsee to his fold ). It really hurt not being able to receive communion, but I'm quite philosophical about it - dems the rules, and I broke them, so...

I considered an annulment, but my controlling verbally abusive ex refused to cooperate, plus my non-Christian DH was married before in church and was baptised (even though he stopped going to church as a child), so he would have needed an annulment too - so there were too many hoops to jump through really.

Yes I really feel for MIL too as her faith is so important and yet she's now excluded/rejected by it.

As a practicing Catholic can I just say that I'm sure Christ would not want anyone to feel excluded. All v difficult and probably no easy answers.

MaryBS - tell me if I'm prying too much, but did you manage to speak to a Catholic priest about your situation? Am glad you've found a sympathetic vicar and LOL at "arsee" Not seen that one before!

Ses, at the time my marriage broke up (and I'd lost my job too), I spent a lot of time at the church, helping them set up a new computer system. Whilst I didn't discuss getting an annulment with the priest, I'd have appreciated him raising it (and he didn't). I'm not blaming him - it was just so raw at the time. The parish just wasn't set up to handle it very well - I wasn't the only one in the same boat. I'd had a long chat as well with a lady who'd waited 12 years for an annulment, and I thought, well I can't wait that long. Maybe I should have given the church more of a chance, but then I met my DH, and when I realised he'd need an annulment too, I gave up. Gave up church altogether in fact, couldn't cope (although DH and I married in an Anglican church, I DID want to be married in the sight of God). Started going to church again (Anglican) when DS was born (DD was 2).

you would think that Christ, his life, his teaching, his example would actually be the central principle around which organised religion revolved and there would be no need for schicm however it seems to me to have been very clearly sidelined along the way.

Love one another...... except for gays/divorcees/women who get above themselves blah blah they shall rot and burn in hell

Thou shall not rock the patriarchal boat and undermine the boys club for you too shall burn

thou shall not question the authority of the pope or the history of the catholic church and the disgraceful way it terrified and manipulated the poor into giving every penny they had so they could build churches of gold (but lets forget Christ in the temple and his teaching, it basically amounts to the same thing)
thou shall forget all about the catholic churches attempt to keep the uneducated uneducated so they could not question practices.

and thou shall absolutely resolutely not for one second think about the fact the Bible was knocked together some considerable time ago and perhaps question its relevance and interpretation for today.

you are a women you are intrinsically evil you will pay, get on your knees and pray and hey you may get a few years of purgatory, there could be a special offer on down the local church this week, 3 for the price of 2. I wonder if they accept Tesco clubcard points?

OUCH mm!

i know i just read that back! i had consumed 2 glasses of wine! however i heartily stick to the notion that for the most part the catholic church are a disgrace to humanity that seeks to manipulate and feed on the fears of the common man/woman.

Lets face it the catholic church is a bunch of inbred blokes sat in rome in a room laden wtih gold stroking each others egos pontificating about how others should be living there lives according to their interpretation of biblical literature when the fact of the matter is they are missing the fundamental point of Christianity that is living in the world (not being of the world) and doing so using Christs example.

oo and not forgotting that most of the worlds roman catholics live in absolute poverty while they sit their supping on wine deep in 'theological' discussion about how those lowly people should be living...

it makes me sick

but then i can understand how religion serves a very important purpose in peoples lives..its the injustice of it and the lack of humility that f*s me off.

Good posts MM. The hypocrisy bothers me and a quick look at the lavish splendour of the Vatican should be enough to prick conciences.

But there are definitely great things about the moral framework of Catholicism which enriches lives and spreads love and peace with a degree of thourough-ness which is lacking in other forms of Christianity. I'm not sure why.

I would love it to move on, admit some flaws and catch up with its own followers. I'm so close to being able to embrace it, but as you say MM, there remains so much arrogance from above, and too little feminine imput.

what we need is a(nother) Reformation.

Led by women. But I can't see it happening in my lifetime.

or mine, or my childrens, grandchildrens etc the whole thing would implode, one has to accept that it will be a very slow and very gradual process that has to start from the bottom up otherwise it will not happen at all.
slowly slowly catchy monkey.

the fact of the matter is mavericks at the vatican do not survive really, and certainly do not reach high office. Once youre in the 'circle' would you jeapordise it with all those perks and the cushy little number you have in Vatican city?
Dont get me wrong it is a lovely place to visit, its inspiring. I quite like bells and smells but dont let the smoke get in your eyes and blur the facts of what Christianity is and is not about and the teachings of Christ.

It is not about selling indulgences, and no while its not as obvious as the middle ages the old 'make a donation' and i'll say a few prayers for you is just a watered down version.

Its not about blaming women for the fall of man, Christ didnt, and he certainly didnt see us as weak minded individuals incapable of leading people to him.

There is a moral framework within all religions but its how one interacts with those outside of it that is important.
Do you stand in your ivory tower gesticulating at those below telling them how sinful there lives are? how they should do this and that or do you dig in, get your hands dirty, lead by example, love unerringly and guide that person to a way that sees them flourish and at peace as an individual.

do you know what it doesnt matter if in doing so you DONT lead them to Christ because if that is your sole reason for helping someone (to notch up a conversion) in my opinion you have got it very wrong. All you can be is an example of a way to live, and an individual will come to christ when they are ready, if they ever are.

"I stand at the door and knock" a person cannot be made to listen, its a whisper within your soul that only you can hear.

Morning all!

MM - I completely agree with the message of your last post. In fact I had been thinking about an earlier frustration that I had posted, ie how as a Catholic, I can try and make a difference. It is slowly slowly catchy monkey and it is about living in the teachings of Christ in the context of my experience of Catholocism.

I'm fortunate in that my experience of Catholocism has been one that does live out the values of Christ. I have heard indulgences spoken about by my parish priest as something that the Church has now recognised was not right and now does not happen. He voluntarily will offer to pray for me if I'm having a rough time and have never heard the suggestion that someone should make a donation in exchange for prayers! [horrified emoticon]

When I was at school as an anglican christian, I decided that I needed to convert all my friends who were non-believers and decided that they were all wrong. How wrong I was! I learnt that it is absolutely about how I live my life. (Although I know I am by no means perfect but need to balance my desire to live up to that standard without beating myself up too much when I don't achieve it)

In my parish I run a group called RCIA - a recognised and universal catechetical process for any adults that are interested in finding out more about the Catholic Church with a view to being received into the Church. It is the "process" I went through myself about 10 years ago. Unfortunately on paper it sounds just like a process but I have found it in my parish to be an enriching journey. Those that are enquiring are under no pressure at all but are encouraged to primarily explore their relationship with God and then find out about the context of that within a Catholic faith. If that fits for them, great! If that doesn't fit for them, also great as they've had the opportunity to enquire and further their faith.

Sorry, I seem to have gone off at a tangent now....

No ses15 it actually sounds very interesting, in my experience many people are intrigued by the catholic church but in the past it has come across as a bit 'mafia' you know like its something you are born into and raised in and impossible to penetrate as an outsider, so i think the work you do is incredibly valid.

at my late Grandfathers church they were 'encouraged' to make a donation and prayers would be said in the service. my head would throb in rage when a card would plop on my doormat telling me my soul was being prayed for at sundays service, i loved him but boy i felt those priest were taking advantage.

i was raised within the church of england/anglican church, and the one thing that really botherd me deeply was the use of 'friendship evangelism' as a means of converting people and how those friendships were or were not nurtured once a person had converted. especially when it was used as a means of connecting with the 'youth'.

look at all my 'appostraphe's'

In truth I think that some of the evangelical arms of the Church of England (and I am sure other branches of Christianity) are much more iffy. Catholics on the whole do not do such a lot of outreach, and my experiences at university were of a very predatory CoE church that was far more full of blood and thunder and hang ups about sex than any Catholic church I have experienced (although we did have one priest when I was a child that liked a bit of gnashing of teeth!). A very good friend of mine had a breakdown at university, and I think a lot of that can be attributed to the pressure and confusion caused by that church's doctrine about sex.

For me its a question of, do I worship God or His church hierarchy?

To some extent it is more important how my local church conducts itself (although that is nowhere near perfect by any means!) I worship in a church which fits in with my theology of what I believe, but that is secondary to my love of God and how I can best do his will. Discerning God's will in my life isn't easy, at best you could say its only a guess, but I try to remember that is what it is all about, and how the gospel message of Christ helps me do that.

I screw up all the time - I just pray that not many people see it when I do, and that I don't damage their faith either.

Just wanted to add, there's a reason why we have 2 eyes, 2 ears and only 1 mouth

Ses I'm very interested that you run the RCIA group at your church. I would class myself as an enquirer and an finding the issue all consuming at the moment.

DH is a lapsed Catholic only now attempting to return to the flock. He was baptised but then never confirmed. His mum and dad split up at the time he would have been thinking about getting confirmed so her faith took a serious wobble. She tells me now that she didn't want her children being pulled out of mass to be frightened in liturgy classes where she couldn't oversee their journey ... so the whole thing halted for them.

DH has always been confused and felt angry and rejected by the church because he continued to go but was never able to take communion yet watched all his peers doing just that. So he stopped going in his teens and has read avidly about all sorts of religeons ever since. He has recently started going back to Catholic mass with a view to getting back on track not least because he wants the option to be open to our children.

I was brought up a devout athiest but was always drawn to churches, religeon and just general spirituality. There's no doubt in my mind that Jesus was a great man and his teachings could save humanity but I'm not sure about things like the virgin birth, a judgemental, interventionist God as oppose to a benign force. I don't like the partiarchal lingo (calling God 'he' and 'Lord') but I can really relate to the idea of God being love and omnipotent.

DH wants the children to enter his cultural background (Catholicism) because he feels it gave him direction, sense of peace and a permission to love others and do the right thing by others ..... yet he has massive problems with much of it and wouldn't disagree with a word Ses says.

I want the children to have an option I never had, but that would mean getting them baptised and can I really get my children baptised into a church of which I am not a member?

I feel dh was lucky he was brought up with this so in a sense the decision was out of his hands and he can turn a blind eye to the bad stuff. I don't feel, in all concience, that I could convert because I am too old and too bright to turn a blind eye. So if I won't convert, then how can I, hand on heart, support my children being received into the church?

Sorry for the length of this. I just wonder if you have any experience of this or if any of the people you help have felt this way. I want my children to have the options I never had ... and yet ...

my mum was raised a catholic, lapsed, remarried to an anglican vicar, they decided when my two younger brothers were born that they wouldnt christen/baptise them within the church, they however had a dedication service where they declared that they would bring them up aware of the teachings of christ etc but ultimately it would be for them when they were older to find there own path and decide whether they wanted to be baptised into the church, which i thought was rather a nice touch.

Spidermama - sounds like RCIA could be something worth looking into for both you and your DH. Most years we get at least one person who was brought up and baptised Catholic but then never recieved any of the other sacraments. Normally they now have children of their own and - just like you - are trying to decide how to bring them up or are attending mass regularly and are wanting to find out answers to their questions. We also get many people married to Catholics / lapsed Caholics with children and people who are getting married to Catholics that want to find out more (I stress not because they've been told they need to convert to get married in the Catholic Church.)

I don't know where geograhically you are or if there is an RCIA programme in your parish or nearby but it may be worth finding out. I'm in Surrey and in the past we have some people travel from parishes 20 miles away because their parish doesn't have an RCIA group. It is nicer to go in your own parish if you can though as one of the important aspects of Catholic Christianity is the fellowship and community it brings.

One thought for you to be going on with.... You say that you believe Jesus was a great man but I once heard someone say that either Jesus was exactly who he said he was - the Son of God - or he was the biggest liar and conman in history or he was severely mentally ill. It makes it quite black and white but I can see where they were coming from...

I believe he was the son of God but I don't believe God is some feller up in heaven. Interventionist. Vengeful.

My God, who it has taken me years to connect with and understand, is more of a benign force, more of a feeling. For me God is all which is good in humanity. He (I don't like saying 'he' but it just comes out ) is love. He's hope and peace. He's the feeling you get when out in the woods. The universe, The connection. All that is other. I can relate better to the Taoist view of God or Tao.

So Jesus, I believe, had a unique message within a unique context and was bringing hope, love and peace at a crucial time for humanity. That's my interpretation.