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Philosophy/religion

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Which Gods do you have/are interesting in having a relationship with?

84 replies

SorcererGaheris · 10/12/2024 14:08

Obviously one for the theists here...which Gods/Goddesses do you have a current relationship with? Or want to get to know/develop a relationship?

Hekate is currently the sole deity that I am meditating upon and conversing with on a semi-regular basis (generally once a week.)

However, my prime interest is deities from Irish and Welsh pantheons, with a particular focus on certain Gods and Goddesses with particular skills and correspondences.

Manannan Mac Lir of the Irish pantheon has grabbed my interest (appears to be more or less the same deity as Manawydan in the Welsh pantheon.) I haven't yet done anything to develop a practice with him, but I'm hoping to as time goes on. There are other deities that catch my interest too.

OP posts:
SorcererGaheris · 13/12/2024 23:47

TheForestCalls · 13/12/2024 22:28

None of them. I've come to realise that the only entity I can rely on is myself and my own resources. I have nothing against religion in general, and the comfort and meaning it can give people, it's just not for me anymore.

Totally understandable. The quesion was more directed at theists, as I imagined agnostics/atheists (of which I'm presuming you're one) would obviously not be pursuing a relationship with any deities. If something isn't for you, then it's not for you and I'm sure you get comfort and meaning from other things.

OP posts:
TheForestCalls · 13/12/2024 23:51

SorcererGaheris · 13/12/2024 23:47

Totally understandable. The quesion was more directed at theists, as I imagined agnostics/atheists (of which I'm presuming you're one) would obviously not be pursuing a relationship with any deities. If something isn't for you, then it's not for you and I'm sure you get comfort and meaning from other things.

Fair enough. Just popped up in my trending threads. I used to be a theist, so the question felt relevant to me. I guess I misread the intention. My bad.

Jacopo · 14/12/2024 00:03

I’ve wandered into this thread by mistake.

eyestosee · 14/12/2024 07:57

@Sorciere1, 'healthier' ? That's laughable! You don't have to look very far within Pagan beliefs to find much brutality. It's there for all to see in archeology across the world. It's there written on the walls of old tombs. Blood sacrifice, human sacrifice, child sacrifice...need I really go on?

Was it that I questioned the transactional nature, as I see it, between pagans and their gods that hit a nerve? Yet you in your earlier post described the relationship between a Pagan and their gods as 'patron / client'....

Proselytising? Well, you said it. If what I said is to no effect I wouldn't be would I?

SorcererGaheris · 14/12/2024 11:21

TheForestCalls · 13/12/2024 23:51

Fair enough. Just popped up in my trending threads. I used to be a theist, so the question felt relevant to me. I guess I misread the intention. My bad.

Absolutely feel free to comment and give your perspective. I just meant that I naturally didn't expect non-theists to be pursuing relationships with deities, since they either don't believe they exist or, if one is agnostic, doesn't feel they can come to a conclusion either way.

OP posts:
Sorciere1 · 14/12/2024 19:07

eyestosee · 14/12/2024 07:57

@Sorciere1, 'healthier' ? That's laughable! You don't have to look very far within Pagan beliefs to find much brutality. It's there for all to see in archeology across the world. It's there written on the walls of old tombs. Blood sacrifice, human sacrifice, child sacrifice...need I really go on?

Was it that I questioned the transactional nature, as I see it, between pagans and their gods that hit a nerve? Yet you in your earlier post described the relationship between a Pagan and their gods as 'patron / client'....

Proselytising? Well, you said it. If what I said is to no effect I wouldn't be would I?

The last human sacrifice in Rome were prisoners executed in 113 B.C in the face of war/invasion.. We're talking about the West, though I don't know any Buddhists, Daoists and Hindus who practiced that. I can tell you they never had wars of religion like Christians and Muslims.
Patron-client means mentor- person favoured. Not a business patron and client. I looked up transaction to be sure, thinking it was only business, but it covers an exchange. So yes, it is and that's fine with me!

eyestosee · 14/12/2024 21:30

The last human sacrifice in Rome were prisoners executed in 113 B.C in the face of war/invasion.. We're talking about the West, though I don't know any Buddhists, Daoists and Hindus who practiced that

@Sorciere1, so have the gods changed? Do you think those ancient people understood them less well than you or better than you do now and sacrificed needlessly? How did that occur? What do you base your understanding and beliefs about the gods upon?

SorcererGaheris · 14/12/2024 22:22

eyestosee · 14/12/2024 21:30

The last human sacrifice in Rome were prisoners executed in 113 B.C in the face of war/invasion.. We're talking about the West, though I don't know any Buddhists, Daoists and Hindus who practiced that

@Sorciere1, so have the gods changed? Do you think those ancient people understood them less well than you or better than you do now and sacrificed needlessly? How did that occur? What do you base your understanding and beliefs about the gods upon?

@eyestosee

My personal perspective:

I don't believe that the Gods and Goddesses demand or require human sacrifice. Ancient peoples undoubtedly sacrificed human to deities sometimes, but I think this was more down to their individual customs and cultures and way of understanding things, rather than a dictate from the deities themselves.

I base my own understanding and beliefs about the Gods and Goddesses on sources from the past, i.e. the mythic literature and historical accounts of how people practiced - but I ALSO base them upon on modern people's practice and experiences with the deities, including my own. Occultists, witches and pagans of all stripes who interact with the Gods speak of their experiences, so a lot of modern testimony goes into my understanding, as well as my own experience. Hekate, for example, once communicated to me that she is not a particularly uptight deity; she said that since one of her roles is to engage with the dead (of all kinds) having an uptight nature would not align well with that role.

OP posts:
eyestosee · 15/12/2024 08:35

@SorcererGaheris & @Sorciere1, from the Bible we know that God Almighty did not require human sacrifice from the Jewish people. They did perform blood sacrifice as offerings to show their devotion and to make reparation for sin** under the law. (As an aside sin is simply acting outside of God's will / not being in unity with Him. And since we cannot intellectually even hope to know things from God's perspective, as human beings, we will sin, unless we are constantly in full communion with Him.)

God, in human form as Jesus Christ, made the ultimate sacrifice and sacrificed Himself. Through Christ, God demonstrates His incredible love and devotion to His people. As Christ is without sin, in complete unity with God the Father and Holy Spirit, he also demonstrated what perfect devotion to God looks like. As Jesus is God His sacrifice didn't end at His death as He conquered death in His resurrection.

Christians no longer perform blood sacrifices instead offering themselves as 'living sacrifices', choosing to use their own free will to choose God's will for their lives, in doing so sacrificing their own impulsive desires, in order to seek unity with God. We seek unity through Christ, loving Him in thought and deed rather than offering blood sacrifices.

Because as shown in the Bible (and in everyday life), offering sacrifices/giving physical gifts can become rather too transactional for some people to be any real demonstration of devotion or effectively make reparation for any lack of unity within a relationship.

FrostedSunrise · 15/12/2024 10:19

SorcererGaheris · 11/12/2024 00:11

@FrostedSunrise

Thanks for your comment! I'm surprised that there are lots of Celtic-focused pagans/polytheists who don't know much about him; my perception has been that he's one of the more well-known deities. Perhaps he's well-known by name but not one of the most popular ones to get to know.

I've had an interest in Manannan for a while and have Morgan Daimler's Pagan Pantheon book about him. It may have partly been his association with the Isle of Man, as I have an interest in the Isle of Man for a few reasons - the most prominent being that I'm a huge Bee Gees fan and all the Bee Gees were born there. I sometimes think that if I do take steps to get to known Manannan better, I might try playing him some Bee Gees songs as an offering, them being famous "sons" of his Isle and all.

Glad you're having fun with it all. Who are some of the more recent deities that have reached out?

Yes, that’s probably a fair assessment. I think he gets hugely overlooked in favour of more “popular” deities like the Morrígan, the Dagda, Brigid and Lugh. I don’t think he’s bothered by it though, if anything it probably amuses him! I’m sure he’d love the Bee Gees too, he’s very connected to the arts and music and they have some great tunes. I have written artistic works as an offering to him in the past and will surely do so in future as well. The first time he actually asked me in meditation if I would write a piece on a certain topic for him, which I readily accepted!

Those Pagan Portals books are really good as introductions - their podcast is also great! Plus of course everything that Rachel Patterson does for the community.

More recently, I’ve had deities make themselves known who have relationships with my main Gods. Geb (father of Isis), the Cailleach (in some of the myths she is married to or in a relationship with Manannán) and Rosmerta, whom I never knew anything about, but it turns out she was also worshipped as the partner/consort of Mercury (Hermes) during the Roman occupation of Gaul. It’s quite fascinating to me that this has happened, and I’m so grateful that it has. I’ve also had Aengus and Brigid/Brigantia step forward and have begun honouring them too. I think this may be connected to the time of year as well.

Finally, I’ve had Odin making himself known since shortly before Samhain. This is the only one I’m a bit hesitant about. I know why he’s here as he’s the all-father of many of my ancestors and I know he wants to work through some ancestry/family things with me, but he also represents a lot of things that I reject, so there’s some tension there which he understands. His presence isn’t unwelcome, but I’m just going to approach it carefully as I know a lot of shadow work is waiting behind that door. 😂 I’m someone who believes that the Gods know better than we do and that they know what is best, even if they sometimes have to argue amongst themselves to reach that conclusion. While Odin is certainly not light and fluffy, he represents elements that are an important part of the Universe and again, I trust that the Gods have knowledge and understanding far beyond what the human mind could ever hope to grasp.

I’m sorry this thread has strayed into a debate about why you believe what you do rather than its intended purpose. For what it’s worth (and there is no evidence that all pagan peoples engaged in these practices), I think “human sacrifice” was often just another way of humanity doing what it has always done - people finding an excuse to kill other people they didn’t like. Christianity (along with other Abrahamic religions) has also been guilty of forms of human sacrifice by making a point at various times in history of torturing, hanging and burning alive suspected witches, heretics and “the wrong kind of Christians”, all to prove that they are the most pious and that they are following the true word of God. That’s before you even attempt to unpack the deaths, denigration and untold trauma caused by abuses within living memory such as the Mother and Baby Homes scandal in Ireland, which was allowed to happen because of the notion that these women and their babies were somehow sinful because they had fallen pregnant without a man deciding to marry them beforehand. How anyone could look upon a baby and see sin is beyond me.

Ultimately, humans aren’t perfect and many are capable of doing terrible, awful things. This is true regardless of your background or beliefs. Religion (including what I call “religious atheism”) and politics can be used by people to justify appalling acts, but I don’t believe that comes from the Gods themselves, regardless of which God(s) you choose to worship. All any one of us can do is try to be a good person and to enjoy the time that we get to be alive.

SorcererGaheris · 16/12/2024 10:45

eyestosee · 15/12/2024 08:35

@SorcererGaheris & @Sorciere1, from the Bible we know that God Almighty did not require human sacrifice from the Jewish people. They did perform blood sacrifice as offerings to show their devotion and to make reparation for sin** under the law. (As an aside sin is simply acting outside of God's will / not being in unity with Him. And since we cannot intellectually even hope to know things from God's perspective, as human beings, we will sin, unless we are constantly in full communion with Him.)

God, in human form as Jesus Christ, made the ultimate sacrifice and sacrificed Himself. Through Christ, God demonstrates His incredible love and devotion to His people. As Christ is without sin, in complete unity with God the Father and Holy Spirit, he also demonstrated what perfect devotion to God looks like. As Jesus is God His sacrifice didn't end at His death as He conquered death in His resurrection.

Christians no longer perform blood sacrifices instead offering themselves as 'living sacrifices', choosing to use their own free will to choose God's will for their lives, in doing so sacrificing their own impulsive desires, in order to seek unity with God. We seek unity through Christ, loving Him in thought and deed rather than offering blood sacrifices.

Because as shown in the Bible (and in everyday life), offering sacrifices/giving physical gifts can become rather too transactional for some people to be any real demonstration of devotion or effectively make reparation for any lack of unity within a relationship.

Because as shown in the Bible (and in everyday life), offering sacrifices/giving physical gifts can become rather too transactional for some people to be any real demonstration of devotion or effectively make reparation for any lack of unity within a relationship.

@eyestosee I'm sure that can be true in a number of cases, but it doesn't apply to all. I see offerings as a way of honouring the deities, but there are other ways as well. It's not uncommon for pagan polytheists to seek conversations with the Gods and to sometimes take actions as a way of showing their respect. For example in the case of Bast, Egyptian Goddess who is strongly associated with cats, a person could make a donation to a cat charity.

OP posts:
eyestosee · 16/12/2024 15:03

@SorcererGaheris

The Bible tells us God Almighty desires 'mercy not sacrifice',

"6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” ( Matthew 12:6-8)

Which says it all really regarding sacrifices. Christians seek unity with God, the Father, son and Holy Spirit. To me this goes beyond simply 'respect' for a god. In loving Christ we seek complete unity with Him and so we actively choose to do His will, seeking unity in thought and deed. As such we become more Christ like as we grow in faith.

So, as a polytheist, I am wondering how you view unity. Everything within creation working harmoniously as one. So how do all the separate gods you believe in reconcile together? And how do you see yourself fitting in with all this?

SorcererGaheris · 16/12/2024 16:28

eyestosee · 16/12/2024 15:03

@SorcererGaheris

The Bible tells us God Almighty desires 'mercy not sacrifice',

"6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” ( Matthew 12:6-8)

Which says it all really regarding sacrifices. Christians seek unity with God, the Father, son and Holy Spirit. To me this goes beyond simply 'respect' for a god. In loving Christ we seek complete unity with Him and so we actively choose to do His will, seeking unity in thought and deed. As such we become more Christ like as we grow in faith.

So, as a polytheist, I am wondering how you view unity. Everything within creation working harmoniously as one. So how do all the separate gods you believe in reconcile together? And how do you see yourself fitting in with all this?

The Bible tells us God Almighty desires 'mercy not sacrifice'

@eyestosee

I respect that that is what the Christian God wants. However, the deities that polytheists engage with are different entities, so there is no reason to apply Jehovah's standards to them. They are different individuals and have different expectations/requirements.

These other deities do not necessarily always demand offerings (though they will sometimes make requests, of offerings, or other things) polytheists see it as appropriate to give them. So I think what the Christian God expects is not completely relevant to polytheists, because polytheists are not engaging with that deity in any way. He is not a part of what we do and how we practice.

I'm not necessarily sure if I think that everything in creation works harmoniously as one. I think that specific deities have their specific skills and correspondences.

How do all the Gods stay consistent with each other? Well, if you mean in terms of things such as the creation stories of various ancient paganisms, obviously those cannot all be true - but pagan polytheists are largely not mythic literalists, which mean we don't believe every single story of the Gods is literally true. The creation stories, to me, are largely allegories and tales that convey deeper ideas and truths.

I view the Gods and Goddesses as emerging and existing from/within a realm of great diversity, just as there is great diversity in this physical world. There is a diversity and multiplicity of the Divine (as I see it) meaning multiple deities, as well as other non-material entities.

As far as myself, I am just one more spirit being currently encased in a physical body. I am on more individual thread in the multiplicity of existence.

OP posts:
eyestosee · 16/12/2024 16:52

I'm not necessarily sure if I think that everything in creation works harmoniously as one

@SorcererGaheris, I don't think it does either. However that is what I ultimately hope for as a Christian.

There is a diversity and multiplicity of the Divine (as I see it) meaning multiple deities, as well as other non-material entities.

I believe God Almighty encompasses infinitely more than we ever could imagine. The issue I have with polytheism is that it seems too fragmented.

Feelingathomenow · 16/12/2024 22:29

I believe all Gods and Goddesses are simultaneously real and unreal. I believe they are such strong manifestations of our higher self. Manifestations that rely on our internal world, but I believe our external world is merely a manifestation of our internal world. Our internal world is a reflection of the external world.

As such all Gods and Goddesses exist, but they might not exist in our experience of our world,

I have relationships with the Christian (typically non- orthodox manifestations) and Jewish God by his many names, with Egyptian gods and goddesses , together with their Greek and Roman reflections. I have relationships with several spiritual beings such as arch angels.

SorcererGaheris · 18/12/2024 10:24

FrostedSunrise · 15/12/2024 10:19

Yes, that’s probably a fair assessment. I think he gets hugely overlooked in favour of more “popular” deities like the Morrígan, the Dagda, Brigid and Lugh. I don’t think he’s bothered by it though, if anything it probably amuses him! I’m sure he’d love the Bee Gees too, he’s very connected to the arts and music and they have some great tunes. I have written artistic works as an offering to him in the past and will surely do so in future as well. The first time he actually asked me in meditation if I would write a piece on a certain topic for him, which I readily accepted!

Those Pagan Portals books are really good as introductions - their podcast is also great! Plus of course everything that Rachel Patterson does for the community.

More recently, I’ve had deities make themselves known who have relationships with my main Gods. Geb (father of Isis), the Cailleach (in some of the myths she is married to or in a relationship with Manannán) and Rosmerta, whom I never knew anything about, but it turns out she was also worshipped as the partner/consort of Mercury (Hermes) during the Roman occupation of Gaul. It’s quite fascinating to me that this has happened, and I’m so grateful that it has. I’ve also had Aengus and Brigid/Brigantia step forward and have begun honouring them too. I think this may be connected to the time of year as well.

Finally, I’ve had Odin making himself known since shortly before Samhain. This is the only one I’m a bit hesitant about. I know why he’s here as he’s the all-father of many of my ancestors and I know he wants to work through some ancestry/family things with me, but he also represents a lot of things that I reject, so there’s some tension there which he understands. His presence isn’t unwelcome, but I’m just going to approach it carefully as I know a lot of shadow work is waiting behind that door. 😂 I’m someone who believes that the Gods know better than we do and that they know what is best, even if they sometimes have to argue amongst themselves to reach that conclusion. While Odin is certainly not light and fluffy, he represents elements that are an important part of the Universe and again, I trust that the Gods have knowledge and understanding far beyond what the human mind could ever hope to grasp.

I’m sorry this thread has strayed into a debate about why you believe what you do rather than its intended purpose. For what it’s worth (and there is no evidence that all pagan peoples engaged in these practices), I think “human sacrifice” was often just another way of humanity doing what it has always done - people finding an excuse to kill other people they didn’t like. Christianity (along with other Abrahamic religions) has also been guilty of forms of human sacrifice by making a point at various times in history of torturing, hanging and burning alive suspected witches, heretics and “the wrong kind of Christians”, all to prove that they are the most pious and that they are following the true word of God. That’s before you even attempt to unpack the deaths, denigration and untold trauma caused by abuses within living memory such as the Mother and Baby Homes scandal in Ireland, which was allowed to happen because of the notion that these women and their babies were somehow sinful because they had fallen pregnant without a man deciding to marry them beforehand. How anyone could look upon a baby and see sin is beyond me.

Ultimately, humans aren’t perfect and many are capable of doing terrible, awful things. This is true regardless of your background or beliefs. Religion (including what I call “religious atheism”) and politics can be used by people to justify appalling acts, but I don’t believe that comes from the Gods themselves, regardless of which God(s) you choose to worship. All any one of us can do is try to be a good person and to enjoy the time that we get to be alive.

Edited

@FrostedSunrise

Thanks for your lengthy reply! It's truly interesting to read about the deities that have made themselves present in your life. Do you think that sometimes, when one's curiosity is aroused towards a particular deity, it could be a sign of that God or Goddess sort of 'poking' at you to try to encourage you to try for contact?

OP posts:
FrostedSunrise · 18/12/2024 14:32

SorcererGaheris · 18/12/2024 10:24

@FrostedSunrise

Thanks for your lengthy reply! It's truly interesting to read about the deities that have made themselves present in your life. Do you think that sometimes, when one's curiosity is aroused towards a particular deity, it could be a sign of that God or Goddess sort of 'poking' at you to try to encourage you to try for contact?

Yes, I think that's exactly what it is. I believe it's that deity making themselves known as they are curious about us or feel they have something to teach us or help us with. It's a two-way street, though. While they can certainly make themselves known very powerfully, I don't think pagan deities demand to be worshipped or to interact with individual humans. There's a clear element of free will there on our side. Equally, I don't think you can 'force' a deity to work with you if they aren't interested. It hasn't happened to me (yet!) but I have heard experiences from other people who liked the sound of a particular deity and then couldn't seem to establish a connection. I think people are often attracted to deities who mirror their own interests and the qualities they value. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that that deity has anything to teach or offer you at a given moment in time. Sometimes it can be surprising who shows up in your life.

An example from my own history - some years ago, I used to be quite frightened of crocodiles (not that I had any reason to be as I don't live in a place where I would be likely to encounter one!). I was going through some trauma therapy and there was a point in this journey when my therapist asked me to visualise floating in a calm pool. I sometimes wasn't able to do this as my mental image would be interrupted by an enormous crocodile rising up under me in the water and breaking the surface of the pool I was in, which naturally somewhat destroyed the tranquility of the image! Imagine my surprise then when Sobek appeared to me in a dream! Over the next few weeks, he helped me to reframe the fear, to the point where I no longer cared if there was a crocodile in the pool with me or not - he had taught me that if there was one there, then it was there as a protective, apotropaic presence, not a destructive one. Like a situation-specific spirit animal. It was such a specific, short-term relationship but one which has stayed with me and I'm grateful for the help I received from him. I smile now if I ever see a picture of Sobek!

FaeryQueen · 25/12/2024 23:14

An interesting thread.

As a hard polytheist of many years I’ve been working mainly with the Welsh pantheon along with one or two of the Irish.

Over the last couple of years, I’ve had some definite overtures from Hekate which I’ve been doing my best to ignore as I suspect she’ll want more than I’m prepared to offer at the moment. Maybe that will change in the future.

Has anyone else turned down an approach from a deity?

Pickles2025 · 25/12/2024 23:48

i research these :

The four main Chaos Gods in the Warhammer universe are:

  1. Khorne — The Blood God
  2. Tzeentch — The Changer of the Ways
  3. Nurgle — The Great Lord of Decay
  4. Slaanesh — The Prince of Excess
Feelingathomenow · 26/12/2024 12:54

Pickles2025 · 25/12/2024 23:48

i research these :

The four main Chaos Gods in the Warhammer universe are:

  1. Khorne — The Blood God
  2. Tzeentch — The Changer of the Ways
  3. Nurgle — The Great Lord of Decay
  4. Slaanesh — The Prince of Excess

Is Nurgle based on the Mesopotamian god Nergal?

Feelingathomenow · 26/12/2024 12:55

FaeryQueen · 25/12/2024 23:14

An interesting thread.

As a hard polytheist of many years I’ve been working mainly with the Welsh pantheon along with one or two of the Irish.

Over the last couple of years, I’ve had some definite overtures from Hekate which I’ve been doing my best to ignore as I suspect she’ll want more than I’m prepared to offer at the moment. Maybe that will change in the future.

Has anyone else turned down an approach from a deity?

I think the important thing to remember is we are also Gods so can and should control what we let into our lives

Pickles2025 · 26/12/2024 13:05

Feelingathomenow · 26/12/2024 12:54

Is Nurgle based on the Mesopotamian god Nergal?

Seems possible but not sure

Feelingathomenow · 26/12/2024 13:08

Pickles2025 · 26/12/2024 13:05

Seems possible but not sure

What do you like about the warhammer mythology? Do you find its cohesive?

Pickles2025 · 26/12/2024 13:10

Feelingathomenow · 26/12/2024 13:08

What do you like about the warhammer mythology? Do you find its cohesive?

it gives different points of view of whats possible and could explain how there maybe many star systems across the galaxies etc and how its not all fluffy rabbits and lovley aliens so to speak

Feelingathomenow · 26/12/2024 13:11

Pickles2025 · 26/12/2024 13:10

it gives different points of view of whats possible and could explain how there maybe many star systems across the galaxies etc and how its not all fluffy rabbits and lovley aliens so to speak

Is there an overview of it anywhere?

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