Unitarians (at Christmas)

[CassandraMortmainthe2nd]

Hi, does anyone here go to a Unitarian church? I have been reading about the Unitarians and I am thinking of going to a service (if that's the right word) at one of the chapels nearest me, specifically Rosslyn Hill or New Unity (both in North London).

Ideally I'd like to choose a time when it will be busy enough that I can go unnoticed, and I thought Christmas might be a good time for that as churches are often fuller at Christmas. But then, I know Unitarian chapels aren't really churches in the usual Christian sense.

So I guess my question is... do I have any chance of finding a service which is busy enough that an extra/new person wouldn't really be noticed? And if so, when should I go?

I guess I would just feel very awkward if I turned up and it was only a few people who knew each other very well and they didn't really ever expect any newcomers...

Why are those things a minimum? Who says? Even if those things are a minimum who is God and what is the Bible (and other gospels saying? And do you have to follow the musings of Jewish mystic Paul to be a Christian or can we ignore those bits? Do we inc the book of Enoch or not?

I have been watching this thread develop since I my original questions were answered. Really interesting to hear what everyone has to say.

I know that Unitarianism developed out of Christianity, and that some congregations will use the term Christian to refer to themselves (eg members of the Unitarian Christian Association) and others won't. Whether any of these congregations is truly Christian is a matter of personal perspective, surely? Eg my catholic friend considers the CofE church I grew up in to be heretical.

It doesn't feel to me like it matters, unless you are actively trying to evangelise and save souls. If you are not, and the religious practice doesn't harm anyone, why worry about whether it is technically Christian (or christian) or not?

I was intrigued in Lewes, home of once anti-Catholic behaviours, to see outside the Unitarian meeting house, on a poster about its history, that they had been active in getting Parliament to re-enfranchise the Catholics in the 19th century. That certainly speaks to a generosity of spirit.
And historically, I remember reading that the Church Father whose writings established the doctrine of the Trinity, was a Gaul, writing in what is now France, and could have been influenced by the threesomes which are found in abundance in Celtic pagan thinking. Not sure about that, though. Could have been sourced from someone who had been beaten over the head by someone's insistence on the Trinity, and anxiousness to shut people out of Christianity.

It’s interesting isn’t it, the number three is found in many religions, in Egypt you had Isis, Osiris, Horus. The Holy Family is often depicted as a three, neopagansim jas the triple goddess - ancient Roman had its Triumvirates. Usually its two opposites (eg make/female, young/old etc and a balancing or middle figure.

Much of the NewTestament and early church fathers were heavily influenced by Greek philosophy.amd the Bible should always be read in the light of Greek and Jewish philosophy and mysticism imo.

I think where it does matter is where peoples relationship to a higher consciousness involves their relationship with Christ . For me, the fact they feel that way is enough to have no objection if the say they’re Christian. For me Christ (and God can be defined in many ways and that is personal). For other Jesus is the one and only Christians there are a number of rules that should be followed and beliefs one should subscribe to in order to be Christian. Again I have no issue if that is how they feel. It’s when they start telling others they can’t be Christian unless they do/believe XY and Z. That really annoys me, people are entitled to believe what they believe, but don’t try and tell others that they aren’t a Christian because they don’t meet your definition.

Hace you found a meeting to go to?

(@Feelingathomenow)

having been condemned to death he will RISE after 3 days.

Except that Jesus actually died - the Roman soldiers made very sure of that.

His appearance in Galilee was inside his disciples as they too had the potential to be Christ through prayer and fasting

They weren't doing a great job of fasting since they ate breakfast with Jesus on the beach! He was clearly there in physical form.

That is the way we defeat death by linking to our own eternal nature, by rising up.

Do you think you can avoid dying in this life?

- It’s highly likely (the body) was removed by some of his followers.

Who, after hiding out and doubting following Jesus's death, just happened to start telling everyone who'd listen that Jesus had risen from the dead then suffered and died awful deaths themselves in many cases. I think not.

Matthew and Luke were based on Mark but were later and embellished the story somewhat.

It's more likely that the gospel of Mark was actually based on Matthew or John's writing -

...There is good evidence that the Gospels of Matthew and John were written by eyewitnesses, and the Gospels of Mark and Luke were written by close associates of apostles...

why did the original writer Mark did not write about Jesus actually appearing to the disciples.

We could argue that all day long.

People often get Mark’s account wrong by saying that there is no resurrection in Mark. That’s absolutely not true. In Mark, Jesus is definitely raised from the dead and is announced as raised from the dead and the women are told that he is going up to Galilee where he is to meet the disciples. The Gospel ends there, without the women telling the disciples (woops!). But Jesus is resurrected, in the body; his tomb is empty; and he is alive again and mobile.

• Bart Eharman blog.

https://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/nt-difficulties/matthew/mk-168-does-mark-not-mention-the-resurrection

Yes - rough short answer is they will all follow the Nicene Creed.

So what is “the gospel”

It can mean the first four books of the New Testament but for a lot of Christians it's the message of good news throughout the Bible - God's plan of Salvation to redeem humanity through Jesus Christ.

When you say “Christ”are we talking about the Jewish teacher Yeshuah? Or are we talking about person who is anointed?

I am talking about Yeshua Bar Yosef/ Jesus of Nazareth, who among His many titles is called "Anointed One".

I'm going to stop there with the back and forth @Feelingathomenow I don't think it's fair on OP or the other Unitarian posters.

my catholic friend considers the CofE church I grew up in to be heretical.

With respect @CassandraMortmainthe2nd I think this shows a lack of understanding and some prejudice on the part of your friend. I don't agree with many aspects of Catholicism but still see it as a Christian denomination.

why worry about whether it is technically Christian (or christian) or not?

Because from my point of view, if a church is claiming to be Christian and then actively going against biblical teaching they are leading people astray and giving them a false sense of security.

https://www.gotquestions.org/false-doctrine.html

But the Nicene creed was only set some 300 odd years after Jesus’s death are you suggesting that for the first 300 years after Jesus death there were no bona fide Christians?

You have a long established pattern of ducking out of conversations when it all becomes a bit unconvienient. Usually with the comment, “it’s unfair to derail the thread” when you have spent several pages doing so. Maybe if that’s your true intention don’t derail them in the first place with your usual arguments over what is or isn’t Christianity- have you really not learned the definition you cling to with all your might doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, to historical and biblical analysis. I don’t have any problems with what you believe, everyone is entitled to believe whatever, maybe afford others the same courtesy.

No, but it was created for a reason - mainly to address heretical ideas and unify the churches.

You have a long established pattern of ducking out of conversations when it all becomes a bit unconvienient.

Sorry?! I think you're mistaking me for somebody else. I find some of your reasoning really strange and it's quite frankly unnerving.

have you really not learned the definition you cling to with all your might doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, to historical and biblical analysis.

That's very much not true.
I think your approach to studying the Bible is a classic case of not being able to see the wood for the trees @Feelingathomenow.

It was created as a mechanism to ensure everyone thought the same. Its inflexibility and questionable theology has led to the deaths of millions. It was just several men’s decision over which of the many circulating arguments at the time. These won out for various reasons, not necessarily the fact they were theologically more sound. The Bible again ignores many other gospels we know of. It includes huge amounts of writings of the Jewish mystic Paul.. But you know all of this of course.

Why do you find my reasoning “unnerving”. What particular aspect of my reasoning do you think is a “classic case of not being able to see the woods for the trees”? I think cross referencing the Bible and looking at the original language together with understanding the cultural and intellectual landscape against which the Bible was written is a sound method.

Again, the gnostic gospels are left out of the canon with good reason. You make it sound like we're all a bunch of lemmings who can't think outside the box. I could have told you what should be in a Christian creed like the Nicene long before I knew what it was. @Feelingathomenow

All of it. I'm sorry @Feelingathomenow but you really need to find a new method because the current one really isn't working.

That’s because that is how you have been taught Christianity.

You say it really isn’t working? What is it exactly that is wrong with this sound methodology for reviewing historical documents?

What good reasons are those?

Enough now @Feelingathomenow I'm planning to have a nice large glass of wine and wind down before bed. I'm sure you've got better things to do too. Goodnight and God bless.

As a long lapsed Christian, your reasoning has resonated greatly with me @Feelingathomenow

om glad if you have found some of it helpful. I believe all of Christianity can be found within. - it says ad much in the Bible. Look into esoteric Christianity if you think it might be helpful to you

@CassandraMortmainthe2nd thanks for starting this thread. I want to go along too, my local one is doing their service this Sunday on Zoom so I'm going to 'attend' that first.

Sorry your thread got completely derailed by one poster, I think this will always happen when religion is discussed, and it's precisely what I hope to avoid.

Ooh interesting that this thread has inspired others to look into it. Let me know how you find the service? I'm hoping to go to a service in person before Christmas - will report back!

Anyone interested could also join the UK
Unitarians Facebook group because loads of services and gatherings are advertised on there and we're a lovely bunch!