Unitarians (at Christmas)

[CassandraMortmainthe2nd]

Hi, does anyone here go to a Unitarian church? I have been reading about the Unitarians and I am thinking of going to a service (if that's the right word) at one of the chapels nearest me, specifically Rosslyn Hill or New Unity (both in North London).

Ideally I'd like to choose a time when it will be busy enough that I can go unnoticed, and I thought Christmas might be a good time for that as churches are often fuller at Christmas. But then, I know Unitarian chapels aren't really churches in the usual Christian sense.

So I guess my question is... do I have any chance of finding a service which is busy enough that an extra/new person wouldn't really be noticed? And if so, when should I go?

I guess I would just feel very awkward if I turned up and it was only a few people who knew each other very well and they didn't really ever expect any newcomers...

No, Trinitarianism is a core belief in the orthodox Christian religions. It wasn’t formally adopted until several centuries after the death of Jesus and many Christian groups have existed and do exist who (correctly in my opinion) that there is scant evidence for its existence in the teachings of Jesus and is likely influenced by Greek philosophy. I do wish people would stop confusing the Christianity favoured by the Roman Empire as the absolute Truth when it comes to Christianity. In my view it’s the least likely to be true as it has been adopted and manipulated for political aims

@Feelingathomenow

"I’m really drawn to exploring Unitarianism more for its open minded approach"

Based on some of the more narrow minded criticisms of Unitarianism on this thread I can completely sympathise with your interest and reasoning.

@LillyPickles

"What is the good of sometimes referring to God and the Bible? Why call it a church? Why have vicars?"

A number of reasons:

1. If Unitarianism provides spiritual and mental benefits to its members then where is the problem in that.
2. If Unitarianism encourages its followers to try to be better people and fix the wrong doings in the world then this has to be a good thing.
3. because sometimes referring to God and the Bible is better than not referring at all 4)It's called a church because it is providing Christian religious services to anyone who wishes to attend.
4. There are vicars because somebody needs to provide the Christian religious services.

To correct any misconceptions Unitarianism is not a "new religious fad or invention " it has been around since the 1500's and is as old as the Protestant movement.

I appreciate that many Christians may view it as "Christianity Lite" compared to their faith, but does that really matter and everyone has the choice on the depth of their religious beliefs including none at all.

They don’t have vicars and don’t call the meeting houses churches.

“Maybe not, but they can't just make it up as they go along either.” why not? Much of Christianity (and the Bible) has been “made up”.

What does “ ἠγέρθη” mean. It’s used to mean both awaken and raised up. It’s used in the Bible metaphorically and literally. In the Greco Roman world it’s more likely to mean awoken to the afterlife. Mark doesn’t say awaken from the dead. “Raised up” would indicate and Elijah type of raising into heaven in bodily form. At no time is resurrected from the dead mentioned -why? Why did Mark not continue to show Jesus resurrected? I also think the presence of the man wearing white is not necessarily an Angel. White clothing was a common clothing colour in both Rome and Greece, it might have been used here to symbolise a citizen of Rome. An acceptance that the Roman authorities could no longer have dominion over Jesus in death.

So what does it mean gone ahead to Galilee. I think this refers to the cyclical nature of life - how the disciples should go back to the beginning of their encounter with Jesus and walk the path he showed them.

Of course everyone will have their own view but the one shown as the only way by the orthodox Christian churches is certainly not the only interpretation there is.

Yes it’s a shame. I mean each to their own but I’m used to discussing things with people with a wide variety of beliefs so I always find it strange when people don’t want to explore - but then that’s just me. I’m generally drawn to western beliefs but I do like the Buddhist philosophy of not clinging to things.

And another online option here to try for those interested

www.unitarian.org.uk/event/u4cj-winter-solstice-and-yule-gathering/

thanks for sharing. I’m not sure I will be able to join that one but looks very interesting - I’ll keep a look out for some others

there is scant evidence for its existence in the teachings of Jesus

And yet Jesus (in Matt 28) directly mentions the trinity before His ascension.

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Not all, but some do.

It's called a church because it is providing Christian religious services to anyone who wishes to attend.

Except it's only Christian in name @1dayatatime. If people want to attend a Christian service they should find a bone fide one in a real church.

https://www.todunitarian.co.uk/ our local one calls itself a church?

“Raised up” would indicate and Elijah type of raising into heaven in bodily form.

The angel told the disciples they would find Jesus in Galilee.

So what does it mean gone ahead to Galilee. I think this refers to the cyclical nature of life

This is one heck of a reach!

I also think the presence of the man wearing white is not necessarily an Angel...a citizen of Rome.

The disciples were 'alarmed', 'astonished', 'trembling' and 'afraid'. They fled from the tomb. Plus, the (very heavy) stone had been removed from the entrance and the visitor gave them a message about where to find Jesus. The man in white is also consistent with the other resurrection accounts. Matthew goes into more detail and says he looked like 'lighting'. I don't think a Roman citizen would have been glowing!

I guess because the building is a church. Where I go is a meeting house.

I've seen ordained ministers leading Unitarian services.

Maybe they have their own system of ordination?

For a Christian you don’t have a very Christian attitude.

The Unitarian are perfectly bone fide thanks. My local meeting house was founded in 1699. How old do you need it to be?

I'm not one to hold back in speaking the truth @TheDowagerCountessofPembroke.

I meant Unitarians are not preaching the gospel and aren't centred around Christ, therefore aren't genuinely Christian.

They don’t claim to be. You are entirely missing the point of Unitarianism. They come from Christian roots historically but that’s it. Some services will start with a bible quote, or a reading from the Bhagavad* *Gita, the Quran or a poem.
There is no requirement to believe in god, no preaching anything other than to be thoughtful. If a Christian wants to attend they would be very welcome as are people of any or no faith.

That might be typical @TheDowagerCountessofPembroke but as mentioned upthread, there are Unitarian churches which claim to be more Christian.

If you don’t like Unitarianism then I suggest you don’t go to their meetings.
There are far worse groups set up claiming to be Christian, perhaps turn your attention to them.

I have no wish to continue this conversation as you clearly don’t wish to listen.

Have a lovely Christmas.

I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive @TheDowagerCountessofPembroke. I'm just trying to point out the differences to people who might not understand.
The Unitarian Universalist churches and biblical Unitarians do base themselves on the Christian faith.

Hope you have a very merry Christmas too.

I think you have to read Mark 16 in the context of Mark 9 as it literally tells you to - “as I told them”.

So what happens in Mark 9? In summary, Jesus takes 3 (note 3) of his disciples up a mountain where Jesus is joined by Moses and Elijah - this creates 2 groups of 3 - a heavenly 3 and an earthly 3. Jesus is showing the earthly 3 his connection to the prophets. Whilst on the Mountain a voice comes out the cloud to say listen to my son. This scene is clearly meant to evoke thoughts of the 10 commandments.

The second thing that happens is the disciples try and expel a demon from a child - they fail Jesus succeeds although the child initially appears dead to some the child is not dead and Jesus helps the child to “RISE”.

Then Jesus says men will condemn him to death and having been condemned to death he will RISE after 3 days. So like the child many will give up on him but after 3 days he will arise.

The rest of the chapter is largely made up of Jesus telling the disciples how to be like him and not to rely on their physical senses eg if you think your eyes are deceiving you pluck them out. Ot then says they went through Galilee.

So you will notice that 3 crops up here quite a bit. In Ancient Greece philosophy Pythagoras sets out the sacredness of 3, it is the first spiritually perfect number, it is the lesser counterpoint to 7. Both are numbers of completeness 3 represents, wisedom, understanding and harmony/balance in Jewish mysticism these are the first 3 emanations after kether:crown - the first physical manifestation of God (here we could say Jesus). So to be raised up through these things is to be at one with God (note where Jesus stood in the two groups of 3) note how he raised the child up - and he told the disciples how to do this themselves you raise up through prayer and fasting). Note how we have 3 people in the chapter who were raised up Elijah (who did not die) the child (who did not die) and the 3rd Jesus (who would not die but be raised up after 3 days - ie after gaining wisdom, understanding and achieving balance. It shouldn’t be forgotten Jesus’s ministry started when he was 30 - 3-0 and completed when he was 33 3-3. His ministry was completed on the third day. His appearance in Galilee was inside his disciples as they too had the potential to be Christ through prayer and fasting - Christ was within them if the looked inward and didn’t rely on outward senses. That is the way life is cyclical and eternal. That is the way we defeat death by linking to our own eternal nature, by rising up.

Re the stone, people put it there in the first place so people could move it. Remember it was women visiting and they thought who could they get to move the stone - so clearly this wasn’t too big a job and sounds like it was possible in Mary’s eyes to be done by one man. It’s highly likely either the Romans would have moved to body to prevent it becoming a shrine, or it was removed by some of his followers.

Remember Matthew and Luke were based on Mark but were later and embellished the story somewhat. The question remains why did the original writer Mark did not write about Jesus actually appearing to the disciples.

So what is a bone fide Christian group in a “real church”? Can you define both of those terms please?

So what is “the gospel” are we talking Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Those book selected out the numerous gospels and writings about Jesus that were circulating at the time? Are we talking about the writings of the Jewish Mystic Paul which make up a very large chunk of the New Testament?

When you say “Christ” are we talking about the Jewish teacher Yeshuah? Or are we talking about person who is anointed?

@Feelingathomenow

There's lots of flavours of Christianity but following the bible on some level is a minimum along with the fact the God is the only one who can forgive us.

I'm no literalist at all, I certainly don't see the bible as fact yet even i cannot accept that Unitarianism as a Christian religion, it's not a church - perhaps it's a non aligned spiritual movement who have services along the pattern of mainstream churches but it's not Christian. I don't mind what they are by the way, people are free to practice any religion or none to find their way in life yet it grates when the word church is used for non churches.