Christian forgiveness - any insights?

[BoundariedForgiveness]

So my question is this:

The bible speaks of forgiving others as God forgives us.

No one likes the injustice in the account about the man who was forgiven a lot of debt, but then threw a colleague into prison for owing him much less than he'd been let off for himself.

It reads as you're not supposed to expect your prayers to be heard if you hold any grudges, and before partaking in communion are instructed to resolve any differences with your 'brother'.

So forgiveness is important and it makes sense if we ask for it ourselves and don't want to be hypocritical.

But my ex, and his toxic mother, did so much damage to me that I cannot think of them with any openness at all. It feels like a protective boundary and I'm not sure I am confusing this safety net with unforgiveness.

Surely forgiveness doesn't mean automatic restoration, something that should only be reserved for those proven safe and trustworthy?

But in the other hand, to avoid them and look the other way if you see them in the street doesn't feel very forgiving. I don't feel open in my mind at all when I think of them. Quite the opposite, I feel a twist in my gut and I am not at peace with them at all. When I saw a group photo of one of them in amongst some of my friends, my heart sank. I didn't feel forgiving and wished they weren't there!

So how does forgiveness look in a situation like this? They're not asking for my forgiveness by the way, it might be easier to do it cautiously if they did; no, this is purely between me and God and dealing with my own internal reactions.

i’m about to engage in a study about domestic abuse this morning, so much of our past history is in the forefront of our mind which is probably why I’m thinking about forgiveness. Currently, I never let him into my home when he comes to collect the children and it feels like his innocent protest assumes some kind of unfair punishment but for me is self preservation. I feel sorry for the children though, except that I think they also benefit from the boundary of a safe place he never inhabits. I promote their relationship with him as far as they are able so make sure it doesn’t get in their way, but when I think of the stories where someone has murdered their child and they sit in a room with them, and threw some incredible restorative just are able to genuinely embrace the perpetrator. Again, I think this might be different if the person is seeking forgiveness but I don’t know. i know I am certainly not in that place myself and feel I should be.

I think there has to be sincere repentance for there to be forgiveness.

Also, and separately, a kind of forgiveness is necessary for your own peace of mind. These people have hurt you badly and at some point you need to let go of that pain because it weighs you down. This takes time.

I think that the concerns you are raising demonstrate a level of openness to the people that harmed you. (I like that word, 'openness', by the way.)

You are reflecting on the project of forgiveness, even though the things they have done make it hard to move very far in that direction.

That is where your openness is. At another time in your life the openness may go further, or it may not.

I don't think that forgiveness is a destination. It is a direction of travel. There would be too much self-suppression involved if the notion of forgiveness required you to discount or diminish the harms that you have suffered in order to race ahead to some sort of absolution of the people who wronged you.

“Surely forgiveness doesn't mean automatic restoration, something that should only be reserved for those proven safe and trustworthy?”

You’re right. Forgiveness does not mean automatic restoration. There is no way you should restore a relationship where you will be involved with people who are unsafe or untrustworthy.

I heard Derek Prince describe forgiveness as an IOU. Someone has done harm to you and that harm is something for which they owe you restitution. Sometimes massive restitution. Forgiveness is when you tear up the IOU. You no longer seek restitution. You cancel their debt (which is literally what forgiveness means in a financial setting).

It doesn’t mean you want to restore your relationship or anything remotely on that level.

And it isn’t saying what they did doesn’t matter. What they did matters a lot and they will be held accountable by God. Forgiveness is when you decide that they are no longer accountable to you. You let them go. It’s not an emotion, it’s a decision of the will.

If it helps write down what they did on a piece of paper and spread it out before God. Then, when you’re ready, tear it up, handing them and their wrongdoing over to Him to deal with. This helped me.

Forgiveness is for our benefit, OP, because if you don’t forgive you remain stuck in the pain of the hurt that was done, just as the unmerciful servant was handed over to the torturers in prison in the parable you mentioned.

Also in practice I find that I have to keep forgiving certain people in my life. Because I keep feeling the hurt and that knot in my stomach. When it comes up, I hand them over to God again and ask for His help and healing.

Peace and freedom be with you, OP 🙏🏻

Think Of forgiveness in the context of previous teaching - an eye for an eye.

You are not manipulating and exploding the life of the ex’s family, finding ways to punish him for his behaviour. Instead, you are facilitating a civilised relationship for his children. That looks a lot like forgiveness to me. You are acting out forgiveness.

Eventually your heart will catch up and you’ll stop wanting to stuff his curtain rods with prawns. At that point you will feel healed.
Protecting yourself and your children from further damage is healthy behaviour.

It's really interesting you picked up the point about needing THEIR forgiveness, for my own benefit.

As I was writing about seeing one of them in that photograph and how it made my heart sink I was thinking that I am in some way trapped because there is something that I haven't let go of... because it doesn't feel safe to let go of.

My natural tendency is to fling the doors wide open again and I know that's not safe for me to do that, and so naturally I do the complete opposite. But I would like to find the balance. I did feel in my body what you have described and would like to have freedom from that for myself.

I like that you tan with the word openness because it felt painful to even write it. To unfurl the spike's enough to be open is a very vulnerable position!

I like the idea that's it's a journey we build up on with more degrees of openness as time goes on, as we grow. I suppose it makes me think I am grateful God can see our heart and intentions, he sees the direction of travel and the hope for the safe ability to be even more open. Writing that out felt strangely strong.

@AgileGreenSeal
"You’re right. Forgiveness does not mean automatic restoration. There is no way you should restore a relationship where you will be involved with people who are unsafe or untrustworthy.
*
I heard Derek Prince describe forgiveness as an IOU. Someone has done harm to you and that harm is something for which they owe you restitution. Sometimes massive restitution. Forgiveness is when you tear up the IOU. You no longer seek restitution. You cancel their debt (which is literally what forgiveness means in a financial setting).

It doesn’t mean you want to restore your relationship or anything remotely on that level.

And it isn’t saying what they did doesn’t matter. What they did matters a lot and they will be held accountable by God. Forgiveness is when you decide that they are no longer accountable to you. You let them go. It’s not an emotion, it’s a decision of the will.

If it helps write down what they did on a piece of paper and spread it out before God. Then, when you’re ready, tear it up, handing them and their wrongdoing over to Him to deal with. This helped me.

Forgiveness is for our benefit, OP, because if you don’t forgive you remain stuck in the pain of the hurt that was done, just as the unmerciful servant was handed over to the torturers in prison in the parable you mentioned.

Also in practice I find that I have to keep forgiving certain people in my life. Because I keep feeling the hurt and that knot in my stomach. When it comes up, I hand them over to God again and ask for His help and healing.

Peace and freedom be with you, OP* "

What an incredible way to look at it. I have been thinking of it as a feeling but when you look at it from the angle of an act of the will, it shifts something. I actually felt a weight lift slightly because I think an act of will is within my power to choose more than genuine change of feelings would be.
I think I might carve out some quiet time to do that exercise of writing down their debt and then ripping it up. I might write down some of my own to other people to keep it fair! You never know, it might help me to not just choose the act of forgiveness to others but also to myself, for different examples but still the same need of forgiveness because I too, have done wrong in my life.

And what you say about the knot in the stomach and being stuck in pain, as I was writing my OP I had a sense of that, so can very much identify with it.

I don't know who Derek Prince is but feel I should look him up if he has pearls of wisdom like that!

You made me chuckle about he prawns. I have actually read that on Mumsnet and considered the idea! Haha.

But also, it was freeing to read that I am not actually seeking retribution. You're right; I am not. There was a time, at my darkest hour, that I imagined hurting him and immediately didn't want to. I actually wouldn't want to be responsible for their pain. So although it would feel justice to shine an eye for an eye, I know if I saw it actually happen I'd struggle with that.

It was good to be reminded.

I think it can be easy for me to confuse unforgiveness as a feeling, rather than the choice between a wish for revenge, over a choice to release the debt they owe.

I didn't read anything into this PP about needing their forgiveness. You have no control over someone else and whether or not they forgive (and there will also be plenty of cases where the hurt only goes one way and the other party may not have much to forgive).

I think it's more that forgiving someone else is about letting of the hurt that they caused and allowing yourself to move on from it and be free and healed. The other party is not really relevant in many ways, a lot of it is an internal healing process for you. I also don't think it means you need to be best pals with the other party, more that you have let go of the hurt and feel much more neutral towards them rather than gut wrenching knot in stomach feelings.

However, given what you've said about your past, I can imagine that it's a very difficult and complicated process here, not a simple journey at all. That you're even deliberating this as a point is a hugely brave thing.

I am not religious at all but I do believe there is a fundamental wisdom in the advice to offer unconditional forgiveness for those who have wronged you.

However, this is a process and not something you can force yourself to do. Pretending to others and/or yourself that you have forgiven when you still feel bitter and angry, is no use to anyone.

I also personally think forgiveness can be a two-way spectrum - sometimes you can be filled with calm compassion for the hurtful person, on another day you just want them to be run over by a bus... Twice. Over time it may be possible to move towards a more permanent state of forgiveness.

Forgiveness offers emotional resolution, closure and peace to the forgiver. I also think the practice of forgiving others helps us to learn to forgive ourselves.

Forgiveness does not mean tolerating bad behaviour, accepting the person back into the same role within your life, letting down your guard, liking/loving someone again, or being unrealistic about who they are.

I found digging down into the factors that have made the person who they are, finding sympathy for the child that they once were, and recognising the limitations that they have (eg inability to empathise, need to control, insecurity etc) that drive their unpleasant behaviour is at the heart of being able to forgive. Many abusive and unpleasant people have developed those behaviours as a survival response to situations they found themselves in during infancy and childhood.

Looking into the psychology of attachment disorder, abuse, the abuser/victim/rescuer triangle, personality disorders etc may all be helpful.

I want to repeat this does NOT mean you have to tolerate bad behaviour or even to have contact. You do not have to share your forgiveness with anyone else either - though it is a huge gift to the genuinely remorseful if you do (those who are not remorseful will be indifferent to your forgiveness).

I think that forgiveness means not hating the other person, or wishing for harm or evil to come to them.

It doesn't mean forgetting what they did to you, or behaving as though it never happened. It is wise and reasonable to choose to avoid people who have hurt you, or otherwise protect yourself from them.

I also think it's reasonable to hope that (for example) someone who attacks you gets appropriate consequences - not so that you can rejoice in their suffering, but so that other people will be protected from them, and so that they may reflect and change their behaviour. If somebody raped me, I would see nothing wrong in them going to prison. I don't think that's unforgiving.

Was about to write something but @Gaph has nailed it!

“I don't know who Derek Prince is but feel I should look him up if he has pearls of wisdom like that!”

He has gone to be with the Lord now, but fortunately there are many of his teaching sessions on YouTube.

This short excerpt might just be helpful to you, OP.

@Canyousewcushions
"I didn't read anything into this PP about needing their forgiveness. You have no control over someone else and whether or not they forgive (and there will also be plenty of cases where the hurt only goes one way and the other party may not have much to forgive).

I think it's more that forgiving someone else is about letting of the hurt that they caused and allowing yourself to move on from it and be free and healed. The other party is not really relevant in many ways, a lot of it is an internal healing process for you. I also don't think it means you need to be best pals with the other party, more that you have let go of the hurt and feel much more neutral towards them rather than gut wrenching knot in stomach feelings."

I think I just worded it clumsily, what I meant was that their forgivensss (given from me, towards them, so technically my forgiveness offered).... helps ME to be okay. So it's actually benefiting me!

I just worded it to sound like I need to be forgiven by them but it's definitely the other way around. And I like how you say their part is irrelevant. I do recognise that and it's good to be reminded of that truth.

I appreciate your wisdom on this, thank you for your thoughts. I definitely value genuineness which is why I think I struggle with the concept - it has to be real!

It's good to read how sometimes it can feel okay and then another wave might come along, you made me smile about the bus, not once but twice - are you a mind-reader?!

It's also really interesting that you link forgiving others to forgiving self more readily. I got a sense of that when I was replying to pp about writing down their wrongs and ripping it up, and the thought I had about doing the same for myself (not about them but about other people before them).

I especially liked what you said about forgiveness not being about forgetting who they are. For years I turned a blind eye because I assumed it must be me (I had it drummed into me and too easily assumed that blame) and it's good to be reminded to check that tendency. It can lurk in the background if I'm not careful and I need to always remember who I am dealing with.

It's also interesting about the sympathy for the child they once were. I was thinking that as I typed about wanting them to hurt and then realising I definitely didn't want that at all. I was thinking it would feel like hurting the child in them. I do have to be careful about that too though, or I can excuse him (them) too much with over sympathy when they are quite cunning and often know exactly what they're doing. But even that can be a long-learned coping strategy.

I have looked a bit about attachment, abuse and various aspects of personality disorders when examining him and the abuse in counselling. It definitely helps a bit. It doesn't necessarily excuse them but does lessen the anger perhaps. A bit like feeling understanding for the drug addict but not accepting they broke. In and stole from you.

That's exactly it.

I know I'm not forgiving because at times I want them to hurt. But I don't want it at the same time, because they're a human and I once loved them. But what they did was illegal and wrong, and it went to the CPS but still no justice. I'd have found that hard to explain to the kids though, and so many, many mixed feelings.

I think that twisting in the chest feeling needs to be absent if you've forgiven. It can feel tiring and I don't need that. I want to feel peace and know I can only get that by forgiving.

But I appreciate you also reminding me that it doesn't mean restoring back to the place he once had. That ship sailed a long time ago.

It's great when that happens, isn't it?! 😂

That's great, I'll check it out, thank you!

This has been a really helpful thread OP. I have long struggled to understand what forgiveness means in Christianity. @Gaph has described it extremely well.

I used to really struggle with this especially when my church told me I should forgive my rapist and I pushed back but as a previous poster has explained and how it was explained to me is that forgiveness is for our benefit. It is about letting go of the hurt and leaving it all to God in terms of what will happen to those people who have wronged you.

Looking at it from a Christian perspective, we can never know if people have repented to God for what they've done to us, even if they have not told us that they are sorry. It's really important that we leave things to God to deal with and so by forgiving you are saying this was wrong and it hurt me but I'm not going to allow it to continue to hurt me. I'm going to hand it to God and ask for his Divine peace in my life and I trust him to deal with it.

It doesn't mean that you have to speak to people again and it doesn't mean that you have to sweep things under the carpet and not talk about them. It's about your personal perspective on it and about not holding on to bitterness and hurt because those are things that hurt you rather than your aggressor.

I actually found it life-changing once I got a handle on it. I no longer think of myself as holding a grudge but of allowing people to show me who they are and I then act accordingly but leave any retribution to God to deal with and simply ask him for peace in the situation for myself.

Are you good at forgiving yourself? I could be projecting but I get the vibe somehow that you hold yourself to a high standard (which is a great thing) but may not be so understanding to yourself when you fall short of that. Do you perhaps feel wary of "making excuses" about yourself? Need to feel bad to be good?

Can you forgive yourself, if you aren't able to forgive your ex (just yet)? If actually, you do, on a deep level, want him to have an accident with a wood chipper? Have you actually allowed yourself to feel the hatred, and the desire for revenge without shame about those emotions? Have you explored those feelings and truly understood and felt empathy, to yourself, of why and where they are coming from? I mean breaking it down, eg "I feel a strong desire for my ex to be dead because that would resolve X for me, or that would make me feel X"

I really think that could be a starting point. It is really good to aim high for yourself, but I think it's just as important to be able confront your own shortcomings with understanding, empathy and forgiveness for yourself. I am very interested in "growth mindset" and think forgiveness is a big part of that mindset. Like someone else said forgiveness is a mental task - an act of will. Good luck

I have had many serious wrongs and harm done to me since I was young. My priest explained to me that the first step in forgiveness is that you don't actively wish harm on those who have wronged or harmed you. So, no thoughts of violence or vengeance. He said that it was natural to still feel hurt and to acknowledge this and hurt takes time to heal. He said always pray about bad thoughts or intentions towards those who have wronged you and, in time, the bad thoughts would naturally lessen as The Lord helps you to heal. It's definitely not an overnight process, but at least try to work in the right direction. Always be aware of any harm you might have done towards others and seek forgiveness, so that you don't fall into the trap of pride and hypocrisy.

@T4phage 's advice is really good.

There is at least one Old Testament thing about the importance of forgiveness where it stresses telling the person you are forgiving what their offence was - making them confront their own guilt. If that is not possible or safe (which says something about the offender) I think the best you can do is to write it down and then fold it up and put it away, in the hope that that will help you to free yourself from what you have suffered. Eventually.

I pray that I will come to a place where I will be able to forgive without reservation, I avoid doing or wishing any harm to the offender, and trust in God to help me through. Again, eventually.

And live your own life the best way you can.

I think if it like this - they did something wrong because they are flawed. On some level their thinking, self regulation is not operating correctly. Many flaws are inherited, some are made worse by bad choices which build bad habits in which people become progressively 'deskilled' in being able to respond to the situations they find themselves in correctly. Some are a result of past experiences triggering dysfunctional defensive behaviours.

Now everyone has flaws. We all need forgiveness. We are all in the same boat so to speak. So we should forgive others as we recognise we are not perfect either and we need forgiveness ourselves.

However forgiveness does not mean you don't need to take steps to protect yourself and others from someone with a habitual self regulation issue in a particular area. That would be giving them an open door to rampage around causing more damage. No good for anyone, themselves included.

If they truly repent? Well yes, if you feel strong enough to be around them again. Otherwise you might be putting yourself in a situation beyond your ability to behave correctly. Should you exercise hope they repent, undeniably yes! And that's where the more difficult bit comes in - how can you ever see that repentance if you don't look for it?

So there is a balance to be had.

And it's ok not to be perfect and all knowing because none of us are.

So you feeling bad if you see them that is entirely understandable and normal for a human being. Your responses have a physical element in that your whole body will remember the pain they caused and this triggers a stress/fear reaction.

Being a Christian simply means that you need to trust God in dealing with bringing other people to repentance and their redemption. And they can choose to resist Him as we all have free will. You just need to be open to the possibility that God can change people.