Atheists and proof cont….

[Kdtym10]

A carry on from the previous thread

The problem with that is that the existence of a 'spiritual realm' is part of your belief system, as a religious person, but not part of mine, as an atheist, so anything that you saw as proof within the 'spiritual realm' would not have any validity with anyone who did not already accept your parameters of belief.

All the 'proofs' of the existence of god I have ever heard/read (and I was brought up going to church and have a lot of very religious relatives) all seem to me to rely on closed-circuit logic, and if you doubt the basic premises then they are no proof at all.

I read a bit of the previous thread and all this one. The answers remind me of an atheist I dated (I'm a polytheist with a background in Buddhism) She said she only believed in things she could see, taste, touch with her 4 senses. Obviously she never heard of quantum physics or dark matter, the latter which is now contested!
Obviously she couldn't believe in love, inspiration, wisdom and justice....and none of them look to mathematics or logic for proofs of an ordered intelligent cosmos ( Godel ) or Plato, Leibniz or other philosophers.
Their conception of deity is childish ( big daddy) and their argument could benefit from some familiarity with Epicurus.
I don't believe in a creator deity just like Jains and Buddhists. I regard the entire cosmos as sentient with many gods, daemons, none of whom are all-powerful. I regard my work in this life is to increase in virtue and wisdom to make spiritual progress, so eventually I become akin to the gods.

I've even posted two "miracles" I experienced as a guest within another religion. The priestesses in attendance interpreted those events differently from me. So it seems the "proof" of such things is the believer's belief

In other words, we can prove the existence of deities by wilfully refusing to consider more prosaic explanations for stuff that happens. This doesn't actually meet any standard of proof in any philosophy.

To clarify, the priest did glide barefoot over the open sea. I did feel possessed by another being. I can fully explain both events without reference to the paranormal. The priestesses, though, see them as evidence of divine intervention. Is their interpretation proof? Why theirs, and not mine?

Oooh, @Sorciere1! Meet @Kdtym10! You were made for each other!

You seem to care quite a lot. Otherwise why post a thread about it?

No the believers don’t have to justify anything in scientific terms. That is not possible. So basically nothing will be good enough for you to believe. That’s probably where you should leave it.(Kdtym10)

@Kdtym10 I'm also curious as to what source you are relying on when you say it's not possible?

Personal experience

I’m curious as to peoples comments of they would need proof and what that entails. Their actual view I couldn’t give a toss about

Oh there’s many people out there with such views. But nice of you to try and connect people - very kind💚

@Kdtym10 In that case you just claim that it's impossible for God to reveal himself, you simply believe it. You have no other evidence than your thoughts?

In that case, have you considered these options too?

1. God doesn't actually exist

Or

2. God exists but doesn't care about the human species? Maybe he is even mean and wants to see us suffer from diseases, wars and deadly viruses, which he infects some us with?

If we all believed in one god, and the world was balanced, with no random suffering, enough for all to live simple, happy lives, then I might say it was made that way for us. You would expect any deity worth their salt to at least do that. But no, the world is fucked over by multiple gods who don't agree about much.

I believe in reincarnation and karma (and an afterlife on various planes)which explains misfortune and gives those suffering chances to enjoy better life/lives.

And atheists believe in only one life, subject to random chance, and no afterlife . So those chronically ill/disabled/abused, born to poverty/war have no chance at any future happiness.
How cruel is that?

And atheists believe in only one life, subject to random chance, and no afterlife . So those chronically ill/disabled/abused, born to poverty/war have no chance at any future happiness.
How cruel is that?

Life is not 'meant' to be fair/nice/cruel/anything. You have no 'right' to a cruel free life!

Like any other species, we evolved and survived by procreating and passing on our genes.

If life has any objective meaning at all - which I doubt, it has to be these 2 things and nothing else. To call them 'meaning' is already maybe a mistake, they are more like necessities.
Sure, if it makes you feel better, the. Go ahead and believe in a magic fairy or god that will transport you to a heaven when you die. I personally do not expect that to happen.

I make the best of my limited time on earth and try to enjoy every day to the best of my ability.

As a disabled person I find it far crueler to be told its essentially my fault because of my behaviour in a past life tbh compared to random chance and statistic probability.

And given that there are stats and reports that show that in countries where there is a majority or significant proportion of believers in reincarnation people with disabilities are treated badly because it's their karma its not really much of an incentive to think aethism is cruel in comparison

As a life long atheist, nothing I’ve heard, read or seen is persuading me to change my mine and take up a faith. Life’s good - no evidence it would be better if I had a faith.

I agree that the ignorant believe this but it is at the same low level as 'sky daddy' vs. a divine monad.
"However, Schumm (2010) and other Buddhist scholars indicate that this understanding of karma is an incorrect interpretation. Karma is very complex, and a human form in one’s past life is only one possibility out of six realms. According to this understanding, a reincarnated person may well have been something other than human in his previous life. Therefore, no one can determine what kind of life an individual with a disability once lived.Disability and 3 Chinese Belief Systems

I think the atheists here have rather good lives and so are pretty okay with the status quo. Frankly most here seem to be classical hedonists (which is fine, I don't care)

Thank you for signposting me, a disabled woman, to an article which is literally talking about how disabled people in China have been referred to as garbage. Yep that was nice.

Interestingly although you posted this in defence of your religious beliefs, it seemed far more about how post religious beliefs are driving the change to not refer to disabled people as garbage.

@dimllaishebiaith I agree that it is far crueller to use one's faith as a justification of treating people with disabilities poorly. It is in no way equivalent to atheist talking about 'Sky Fairies' (though I would never do this and consider it poor manners). Stigmatising and abusing disabled people and thinking it is OK because of your faith is far, far worse than a few words flung by the rude and ignorant.

And atheists believe in only one life, subject to random chance, and no afterlife . So those chronically ill/disabled/abused, born to poverty/war have no chance at any future happiness.

Why on earth should disabled people NOT be happy and live fulfilled lives? What an ignorant view!!

We all try to make the best of the short time we have on earth and happiness comes from within, not from some hope of another life in the future!!

What an insensitive comment - we all only have one life and try and make it has good and happy as possible. Unfortunately for some people life is more difficult.

You say that like atheists are personally responsible for disabled people not reincarnation into something "better".

@Sorciere1 "I think the atheists here have rather good lives and so are pretty okay with the status quo. Frankly most here seem to be classical hedonists (which is fine, I don't care)"

What makes you say that? I am an atheist and a humanist; I don't think anyone could describe me as a hedonist, my life has certainly not always been easy, and I am deeply unhappy with the state of this country and the world.

I believe that this life and this earth are the only ones we get, and so we have to make the best of them. With an approach based on logic and empathy, it is rational to try to make the world a better place for everyone by, for example, protecting the environment, supporting human rights and helping people whose lives are more difficult than my own. Atheists don't have the comfort of believing that things will be better in the afterlife/next life for those suffering in this life, or that everything is part of god's mysterious plan. You will find many, many atheists and humanists working in charities and humanitarian organisations and in other ways to change the status quo.

https://humanists.international/what-is-humanism/

@Lalupalina ;
"Why on earth should disabled people NOT be happy and live fulfilled lives? What an ignorant view!!"
My late sister ( uncontrollable epilepsy) my two first cousins (dwarfism, developmentally disabled) were all disabled. I loved all three but my sister and cousins did not enjoy fulfilled and happy lives. They suffered.My sister was tormented by the happy life she lost and constantly fell and injured herself, my sweet cousin with dwarfism ( his preferred word) was rejected by his family and became a drug addict and died young. My other cousin spent his short life in a home with other developmentally disabled young people exiled from his family, who didn't want to be bothered.

I was a pretty happy atheist at 9 since my life was great, but my love for my sister and cousins meant I began to search for an answer for them; I couldn't be happy while they were shortchanged.

@dimllaishebiaith I posted the article because I don't hide or pretend, it was about developing attitudes and 3 religions.
Buddhism is far more compassionate; at least my sister and cousins can reincarnate and have another chance to live happy, fulfilled lives; 1 life is cruel.

It was about developing attitudes, but like I said, my take from the article was that religion had led to disabled people being labelled garbage and post religion was leading away from that

And yes I understand you posted the article because you don't hide or pretend, because your posting of that article was all about you and the impact it had on you. It was an act of selfishness to go "look at me I'm so enlightened I will admit religon isn't perfect and ignore the impact on the disabled person opening the article to find themselves labelled garbage in the first paragraph"

@Sorciere1, I see where you're coming from. I'm sorry your extended family was horrible to its disabled members.

I see reincarnation as an abrogation of responsibility towards others. It unequivocally blames people (or their spirits) for hardships they endure and, instead of looking to help others live happy, fulfilled lives, it kicks that can all the way down the road to death.

As if that weren't cruel enough, caste is implicit in reincarnation theories. Even in traditions that have abandoned overt caste distinctions, privilege is understood as a reward for spiritual advancement in previous lives, creating a cultural barrier to material advancement in this life. Reincarnation's a lovely, inspiring belief for the privileged. To the rest, its message is "Suck it up, sinner."