Atheists and proof cont….

[Kdtym10]

A carry on from the previous thread

Why?

Can you not think why?

Because they don’t believe there is anything afterwards, anything to go to, so if they die then that’s it - I’d fight harder for that then if I thought that death would see me going to heaven, or being reborn.

I suppise technically its possible that for some, if you believe that the afterlife is heaven where you will be rewarded, then you might be less likely to fight as hard as someone who believes death is the end and there is nothing after?

Im not convinced religion or not comes into it though personally, I think the will to live is part of our biology and therefore people fight hard regardless of what they think comes next.

But then what I call biology (and I dont mean it in a precise biological theory sort of way) someone else might call Gods will and mean the same underlying drive to survive (no F1 pun intended)

The point about one life is interesting. I've often wondered if deeply religious people are just as keen to live, and fight to stay alive, as non religious people. Surely if going to heaven is such a good thing, there would be earlier mortality amongst the devout?

I'm going to regret picking up on this.

Meditative practices do originate in 'spiritual' practices, yes - all religious traditions incorporate them and always have. I can witter on for days about how meditation works neurologically (with much still to be discovered) and about how phenomena of the evolved human mind have been, and are, interpreted as supernatural interventions. Paul Gilbert's The Compassionate Mind is a good book for anyone newly interested, and The Gift of Fear goes some way to explain what 'instinct' is.

Practical psychotherapy such as CBT, though, is very far from religious tenets. To observe, evaluate and analyse our emotional responses and the thoughts behind them, with a view to changing our responses and consequent behaviours, is almost the antithesis of "God made me this way" and "A spirit spoke to/through me/them".

I mean, take the credit where you may if you don't want to look deeper into your human mind, but please don't bowdlerise newer modalities by injecting woo where there is none.

Good point. Individuals with very strong post-life inducements have martyred themselves in various ways; suicide bombers see themselves as martyrs headed for paradise.

I've also been mortally ill (anaphylaxis) and have 'died' in surgical recovery. The first taught me the sheer power of the body's will to live; the second taught me nothing. I didn't see any lights or hear any angels - except the hospital lights when I came round and the nurses, who sure as hell seemed like angels at that time!

I'm surprisingly comfortable with my mortality. I've always known that life is precarious, always appreciated being alive at all. Memento mori, as the Stoics say 💀

Here’s a ‘religious person’s’ point of view. I am quite keen to leave this broken world and go to be with God, where there will be ‘no more death, or mourning, or crying, or pain’ according to the Bible. I’m looking forward to it a lot. I know other Christians who feel the same way, However, there is also a) an animal instinct to go on living and b) a wish to cooperate with God, so that if he wants me on earth, that’s where I want to be. So I would never kill myself however much I felt like it. Also I have children that I wouldn’t want to be without me yet.

I think these reasons to want to live apply to many other Christians, so if there isn’t earlier mortality among us, they are at least partly why.

I just googled whether Christians are less afraid to die than non-Christians, and found that according to a study in the Journal of Cognitive Science (briefly described and linked to here: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/afraid-to-die-youre-probably-not-a-christian/) Christians were found to fear death less than atheists, Hindus or Buddhists. According to this article other studies also support this idea.

So even if we don’t die earlier, our beliefs may make a difference at the end :) On average, of course, not in every case, in spite of the title.

Rather than simply responding with your take when people tell you their beliefs; you have been telling people they are wrong. Of all the posters on this thread, you have been one of the most dismissive of the beliefs of others.

This is sad - you are keen to die. Life is amazing - enjoy it!

I've never seen anyone else mention The Compassionate Mind, @Garlicking . It helped me loads at a very difficult time. It's about time I revisited it actually.

I’m pretty sure, I’ve never told anyone they are wrong. I have just stated my beliefs. Can you highlight anywhere what’re I’ve said “you’re wrong”?

I think having a belief in the Divine can give you a purpose in life. You are here for a reason rather than just an accident making the best of things. I know I am very keen to love, the temporary nature of this life is as much part of my beliefs as yours. I guess I view it as part of a never ending journey, but each part is meaningful and necessary.

I have no fear of death but o fear not fulfilling every inch of possibility from this life.

My life is not an accident making the best of things - what a horrible comment.
I don’t fear death because I’ve lived/living a great life

I think having a belief in the Divine can give you a purpose in life. You are here for a reason rather than just an accident making the best of things.

@Kdtym10 Does this supposed 'reason' you are on earth apply to all living species or just to the human species in your opinion?

I would argue CBT is basically a carbon copy of many magical practices, esp those of the 19th century whose routes were in fact, dating back to many other practices some as far as ancient Egypt. In fact, I’ve had better success with the same concept of CBT in a magical tradition context than stand alone with a psychologist. The idea of correspondences is incredibly powerful here.

it’s interesting isn’t it how so many spiritual practices have been appropriated by the very people trying to rubbish them. Another example is chanting a see Porges theories around the vagus nerve.

Have you ever considered whether the human body was designed in this way so that there could be a connection to the divine. All science does is describe what is happening. It often stops short of why, because it quite often isn’t equipped to know.

Good question. I would say it applies to everything as an emanation of the divine.

All science does is describe what is happening. It often stops short of why, because it quite often isn’t equipped to know

That’s a very simplistic take. In many cases, that what is also the why, and they are not as separate as you think. But also the question of a why is heavily predicated on believing in the divine. For example (and I preface this by saying I am very much not a scientist) receptors in the skin react to heat and send a message to the brain that a part of the body is being damaged, causing an automatic reaction to withdraw that body part from the source of heat. It is a defence mechanism that has evolved in most living creatures over millennia. Explaining that a nervous system has developed this automatic reaction is both the ‘what’ - heat triggers flinching - and the ‘why’ - flinching withdraws the body part being injured. For me there is no bigger ‘why’ to be answered; the explanation of what the body does when being injured by heat is entirely self explanatory.

Good question. I would say it applies to everything as an emanation of the divine.

That would imply that all living organisms found on earth, including viruses, bacteria and other pathogens are all here 'for a reason'?

Does that also apply to animals etc who don’t have a consciousness that we recognise? I’ve been reading a lot about animal senses lately as they are fascinating, and they all have an umwelt that is so entirely different from ours, we can’t even consider the idea of consciousness as we understand it because they experience their world so very differently. Take an octopus; it essentially has 9 centres of ‘consciousness’, as each tentacle has its own central nervous system and appears to analyse and respond to stimuli independently of what we would consider its central brain. Does this mean that 6/9ths of an octopus could understand or believe in the divine, and 3/9ths doesn’t?

Ah, sorry, so many people have said there isn’t a purpose/meaning behind their life as distinct from that felt by religious people. So what is the meaning/purpose behind your presence on earth?

How very anthropocentric. Just because humans can't recognise something as being like them doesn’t mean they are any less divine. Each thing has its own purpose and the way it is fits that purpose well.

I have read a bit of this thread and I feel the atheists come across as very aggressive and threatening.
Definitely don’t make me want to join their ranks.

My purpose is as a wife, mother, daughter, sister and friend.

Why? - aren’t those purposes just roles in relation to others. They’re not specific to you?