Atheists and proof cont….

[Kdtym10]

A carry on from the previous thread

And doesn’t make it true, either.

Something someone said upthread reminded me, one thing I am genuinely curious is how people who believe in one religion square the existence of other religions? Or is it just like Terry Pratchett’s Small Gods, and the more people believe in one particular god, the more powerful they become?

one thing I am genuinely curious is how people who believe in one religion square the existence of other religions?

I've also asked about this but haven't had a satisfactory answer.

Given that there are over 4000 religions, faiths groups, and denominations that exist around the world today, and many contradict each other, they cannot all be true?!

Oh o thought I had answered this several times re a perennial philosophy.

I guess if you only believe in one religion it might cause issues, although deep down everyone is believing in the divine, just a different set of stories they find more plausible of easier to relate to than others.

The power of gods being related to the amount of people who belief is an interesting point. I think Pratchett possibly was influenced by Norse mythology a lot. You can see this concept in the feeding the Gods with apples and I would argue Ragnarok

@Kdtym10, how wrong would I be in thinking you've basically created your own religion, which - pardon my crude understanding - holds that god is an "everything"/divinity, the universe and all things in it are pieces of this god, and all the pieces are gradually finding their way back to join up together?

If I've got this more or less right (?) the religious aspect of your belief involves ancient texts, the more esoteric the better, which you think provide information about the nature of this cosmic divinity. I'm unclear on what you hope to do with that information, but I'm guessing you feel that you have ways of directing divine 'emanations' within your personal sphere of influence, or can discover them? A bit like that guy who 'discovered' reiki air signing, or Sufi magical dances, witchcraft symbols, and the incantations of any religion anywhere.

Am I in the right ball park? If so, please could you give us an idea of your favoured means of communication with divine emanations?

And do you see other, more formalised religions as subordinate to your vision of universal divine emanations?

It's just that I've been talking to you over three full threads and parts of others yet, despite your evident conviction, have no idea what you're convinced of! Please elucidate.

Re; the various religions thing. The common spiritual metaphor is hikers climbing a mountain on different paths. The paths are different but they all will reach the same summit.
I notice the fixation on a singular male god. It's a totally normal byproduct of Levantine and Middle Eastern polytheism where henotheism ( one god or goddess being the top deity)was the norm. Read Javier Teixidor's "The Pagan God" old but good.
The Pagan God
El of Ugarit, Yahweh, Allah all come from this. Astarte was a top goddess too!

Yes that’s a great analogy

Your very first question was On several threads, some atheists have said they would believe in God/the Divine if they had proof. If you’re an atheist what would that proof look like to you?

You said God. Do you define atheists as people who don’t believe in God? Or does it go wider, people who don’t believe in the divine as you do? That could include other religions. Do you want to ask a Sikh what proof they would need to believe in the same concept of Divinity as you?

@Sorciere1, Yaweh was married to Asherah when the Judaeans got him. Asherah's symbol was a tree (arguably the origin of the menorah). The pair had couple shrines. The male priesthood killed her off, flattened the shrines and trees, and murdered her devotees. "[Josiah] broke in pieces the sacred pillars (cultic memorial stones, images) and cut down the Asherim and replaced them with human bones [to desecrate the places forever]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_the_canon

Good point. I took the question from a previous thread re God. But yes, I would very gladly broaden that out to any faiths concept of the Divine which I thought I had done, but this obviously wasn’t clear

It’s also worth considering Sophia in Gnosticism (although could be considered problematic as in effect she is blamed for the demiurge)

Absolutely, it was reading about Jezebel and the cultic trees as a child that showed more was going on. I liked her... 😂 Years later Mark Smith's "Polytheist Origins of Monotheism" + Teixidor's book were so liberating! I'm a happy polytheist now and worship the great Mother too.
It's kept quiet but goddesses were worshipped along with Allah; Allat, Al 'Uzza and Al 'Uzzah in the Kaaba. And with Christianity Sophia and Mary ( whose early icons are taken from Isis).
There are so many species of birds, insects, animals, even humans show such variety. Monotheism seems ridiculous. I'd say the cosmos, us, we're all made of energy which is probably consciousness but then I tend to panpsychism.

Oops the 3rd Arabian goddess is/was Al Manat

I didn't say it was likely. I was providing examples of things that would prove to me that God exists.

Thanks - as they haven’t happened yet - I’m not holding my breath!

It sounds like Kabbalah to me @Garlicking
Kabbalah and I believe she is into Western possibly Hermetic Esotericism. Not my wheelhouse, I'm familiar with Greco-Roman polytheism and Buddhism and esoteric practices.

You say you don't know anything about the Qur'an yet, you claim God have not revealed anything for you to ponder if you're on the right path or not?

You are content with science theories, which are constantly updated to correct themselves to be true.

If the right knowledge hasn't reached you or you can't be bothered to search for it then don't assume what your logic inference tells you is correct.

The one thing that atheists have done compared to other religious groups is that they have disbelieved in any gods. But, the challenge is to find the right God.

Not because I am saying or those who believe with me are saying so but, because you need to study it and come to your on conclusion.

This is about your personal journey and not riding on the hate bandwagon or those who have mign interests.

The life is yours so you better be sure that you done your 'homework' so to speak because we all get only one chance.

Someone hasn't read the Qur'an unless you are proifficent in classical Arabic, which I'm assuming you are not, at least try and read the meaning of Qur'an in whichever language you prefer.

If you say that the Qur'an from other than God, then God challenges all of mankind and Jinns to get together and produce another Qur'an like it and bring your witnesses other than God.

That's not my challenge but God Himself have state it in the Qur'an.

How can you critices a scripture that you haven't read or understood or sort clarification about it or what it contains?

It's not a job of a Muslim to convince anyone else to believe in one God. But, God have tasked us to deliver the message to whomever desires to listen to it.

At the end of the day, guidance is not upon anyone else other than God. He guides whomever of His servants to the Truth as He Wills.

He knows the secrets of the hearts and what is outside, nothing is hidden from God.

You can argue as much as you like and be as arrogant as you want, just like the Pharaoh did with Prophet Moses and you can see the outcome.

The Sign of Pharaoh’s Body (Qur'an 10:90-93)

"And We (God) took the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers pursued them in tyranny and enmity until, when drowning overtook him, he said, “I believe that there is no deity except that in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of the Muslims,"

Now? And you had disobeyed [Him] before and were of the corrupters?

Today We will preserve your body, so that you become a sign for those after you. But most people are heedless of Our signs."

The body the same Pharaoh who was drowned while pushing Prophet Moses is on display in a Museum in Egypt.

But, you will never believe unless God Wills, because He knows the secrets of the hearts.

Now who is being arrogant - .The life is yours so you better be sure that you done your 'homework' so to speak because we all get only one chance. This sounds like a threat? I don’t believe in any god - yours or anyone else’s. My life is good - I’m not missing anything so why would I want to change it?

Just another beliver telling the rest of us to believe as they do or we'll go to Hell. Aggressive proselytising at its finest.

I much prefer the discussions about our experiences of spirituality and the divine, even though I do not share those experiences.

you claim God have not revealed anything for you to ponder if you're on the right path or not?

Atheists don't need to "claim" God hasn't revealed anything because they don't believe in God in the first place

If the right knowledge hasn't reached you or you can't be bothered to search for it then don't assume what your logic inference tells you is correct.

How rude.

The one thing that atheists have done compared to other religious groups is that they have disbelieved in any gods.

Yes

But, the challenge is to find the right God.

No. Actually that's not a challenge for an atheist. They don't believe in God ergo they don't need to challenge themselves to find the right God. It's a fairly simple concept.

Not because I am saying or those who believe with me are saying so but, because you need to study it and come to your on conclusion.

Why do you assume atheists haven't?

This is about your personal journey and not riding on the hate bandwagon or those who have mign interests.

Why is atheism a "hate bandwagon". There is nothing about not believing in God that is inherently hateful and its quite offensive to imply there is tbh

The life is yours so you better be sure that you done your 'homework' so to speak because we all get only one chance.

And you have studied all 18000 Gods before you made your decision yes?

Someone hasn't read the Qur'an unless you are proifficent in classical Arabic, which I'm assuming you are not, at least try and read the meaning of Qur'an in whichever language you prefer.

Why? If I don't believe in God why should I? I mean I have personally had a lot of religious education in several religions but I'm not sure why you think it's okay to just demand everyone read the Qur'an just because you happen to have decided it's the one true religion. Perhaps I might like to read the Principia Discordia instead. I presume you have bothered to read that?

You can argue as much as you like and be as arrogant as you want,

You are arrogant.

@Deenforme did you know goddesses lived in the Ka'aba with Allah. He wasn't original nor unique; Allat, Al 'Uzza and Al Manat lived there with him, just like Asherah is the wife of Yahweh the Israelite god and Athirat is the wife of El the great god of Ugarit.
The Levant and Middle East were polytheistic and it would be much healthier if the various cultures returned to worshipping goddesses again!

The life is yours so you better be sure that you done your 'homework' so to speak because we all get only one chance.

@Deenforme Why on earth are you so aggressive and threatening?

Sorry but surely it would be better not to worship any god or goddess - why would you?

Well let’s think

1. you believe they are real and deserve worshipping
2. you believe they are real and think you will get something in return
3. You believe it is beneficial for society as a whole
4. you enjoy the communal aspects of worship
5. You find the ritual beneficial
6. you see the deities as part of yourself and the act of worship allows you to connect to that part

Just some ideas.

Yep. Ideas.