Atheists and proof cont….

[Kdtym10]

A carry on from the previous thread

The Big Bang theory explains how the universe was created. It doesn’t say that the theory was explained at the same time as the universe was created. Many theories look back at what happened and can they explain the theory from the knowledge at the later time.

I can only give you a Muslim perspective concerning belief.

We believe that every human being is born with a natural disposition towards believing in one God, it's called 'Fitrah'.

They only diverge from that belief due to parental and other influences.

But, the belief in one God is still within them. Sone try and rediscover and hence, revert back while others surpress the belief, this is known as Kuffar. Meaning, covering up the truth, a disbeliever in God.

But, as God doesn't force anyone to believe, they are left alone until all humans are ressuracted again on the Judgement Day.

God will judge between all his servants fairly, and no injustices will be done on that day, not any excuses entertained.

Again, the question is.

How did that knowledge came to be found in the Qur'an back in the 7th century when the Big Bang theory and the expanding universe was recently discovered?

I’m sorry, but not thinking the same as your childhood family and friends are and your type of schooling does not prove you “learned to think for yourself”. Who do you think like now? You can move from one person shaping your thoughts to another. Sometimes we are simply rejecting something, quite often we combine that with absorbing what is expected of us by another group, which can be another group of friends, a partner or society at large. Very few adults in history have actually truly thought for themselves. The ones that have done are generally labelled mad.

As I said I think the only people who do truly think for themselves are children - we don’t grow up, we constrict.

Quoting old books really grinds my gears because it is used as fact, rather than what it is - an old book(s).

Exactly.

ABRAHAM, Jacob, Moses, King David, and King Solomon in all his splendour, never existed, a 15-year study of archaeological evidence has concluded.
The study - by Professor Thomas Thompson, one of the world's foremost authorities on biblical archaeology - says that the first 10 books of the Old Testament are almost certainly fiction, written between 500 and 1,500 years after the events they purport to describe.

I don’t know anything about the Qur’an - I follow the scientific reason . I recommend looking at the Christmas Royal Institute lectures. I went to one when I was young - sparked my interest.

I think it’s interesting- there is something very similar in Kabbalah called the “Shattering of the Vessels” where the light of God was constricted and placed into vessels which could not contain the force and the vessels shattered sending out the light and fragments pretty similar to the Big Bang. Mind you the catholic priest who put forward the theory of the Big Bang might well have been knowledgeable about these ancient stories.

Did they mention the Qu’ran (or Kabbalah) if not, it’s unlikely to address the point. I can recommend some good books on the Kabbalah, and I’d be interested from the other poster of the could recommend what to read in relation to the Qu’ran o. This point if you’re looking to expand your knowledge on this.

Always interested in other people’s views but I don’t believe in any gods from any religion. The Qu’ran has not been mentioned in material I’ve seen on the Big Bang theory.

That is why I always say it’s important to understand the symbology in such books.

Im not sure why quoting old books “grinds [someones]gears. I assume because they don’t fully understand them on the multiple levels they were meant to be understood

You might find this simple overview of interest re Kabbalah https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/kabbalah/Creation/creation.html

We believe that every human being is born with a natural disposition towards believing in one God
@Deenforme there you go, losing me after the first two words. Just because you believe it, doesn't make it universally true.

Im not sure why quoting old books “grinds [someones]gears. I assume because they don’t fully understand them on the multiple levels they were meant to be understood

@Kdtym10 there we have it again, how do you know they were meant to be understood on multiple levels? You may believe that to be the case, but you cannot blithely state it and sound credible.

What the hell? I don't need to prove a statement that I'd read something about Mohammed's embryology before you mentioned it.

I have checked what the Qur'an says about embryology. It is not in line with current knowledge. I don't know why you'd want me to cite the verses, you already know them!

You're welcome to your beliefs, of course.

A good explainer of dealing with doubt

@Kdtym10, one simple question - what did you hope to get from these threads when starting them, if you are so clearly not interested in listening to what atheists are saying?

Are you saying that all ideas and beliefs must come from some external source and I cannot have come to independent realizations about things, such as whether I believe in God or not? I disagree.

Even though you started this thread to find out how other people think, I think that you are not interested in understanding other people's ideas -- you're just interested in trying to refute every point made that does not conform to your own beliefs. It's tiresome.

I’ve had a quick but disagree fundamentally -
In the beginning there was only God... and nothing else. God, or Ein Sof, was an all-encompassing Divine - I don’t believe in that there were/are any gods - the religion is irrelevant.

I have serendipitously come across this quote just now and I think we could all use it.

"True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing."

                                             Socrates

It wasn’t shared on the basis of you agreeing or not agreeing with the presence gods, it was shared to illustrate the Kabbalistic cosmology 🤦‍♀️.

i prefer Plato’s “know thyself”

Something else I don’t believe in. Life is so much more straightforward in my world!

""Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?"(Qur'an, 21:30)

“And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are (its) expander.”(Qur'an 51:47)"

You think this describes the Big Bang and everything around it? That's just stupid!

The same with that Kabbalah thing, it's just trying to shoehorn current knowledge into some nonsense that was made up before.

Of course any religion is going to say that insert favoured deity created the universe in a splash of light! They're hardly going to say they farted it out of an orifice, or snorted it out of their nose...

Ah we agree on something- we all have our own separate subjective worlds
of our own creation - after all we are gods.

Well maybe it is non- sense, or cannot be perceived by the senses. Doesn’t make it lacking in truth though!