Atheists and proof

[Kdtym10]

On several threads, some atheists have said they would believe in God/the Divine if they had proof. If you’re an atheist what would that proof look like to you?

the only ultimate explanation for its existence may as well be called "god"

Why? Why call it god and then worship it?

Why not just accept that we don't know and are still learning? Why make up something to fill the gaps in our knowledge?

No trouble at all. But you’re not expressing yourself very clearly. You are also not actually saying anything. So are you going to answer my questions or not.

I am particularly interested how you don’t think the concept of “The Source”‘stands up to scrutiny.

That was my post from last night. I said People of faith believe that "the source" answers individual prayers from members of a single species on a single planet. Even if you choose to surmise a consciously intentional "source", that idea doesn't withstand the most basic scrutiny.

The idea that doesn't hold up is the individual prayers part. OK, nobody knows what "caused" the universe. Can't scrutinise that. But if the entire universe was intentionally generated by a conscious entity ("Source"), why would it be obsessed with just one species, granting human wishes like a cosmic Santa Claus?

Well thanks for the clarification. Obviously it was too much for the other poster to point that out. Tbh the posts are just merging into one.

Anyway, who says “the Source” is obsessed with one species?

I think you’re confusing different concepts. Generally ideas about the Source aren’t linked to worship or prayers asking for things

But if the entire universe was intentionally generated by a conscious entity ("Source"), why would it be obsessed with just one species, granting human wishes like a cosmic Santa Claus?

@Garlicking, and I would say, as a Christian, I don't view prayers as wish fulfilment. They are more about coming into unity with God. I pray for God's will to be done. Where that aligns with my hopes (and faith in Him) too is where the prayers come to pass. As He grants prayers according to His will, according to Christian belief. I touched on this earlier in the thread where you were talking about 'domino effect'. And His will covers all of His creation. Otherwise things could be set out of balance. Which is what the warnings over types of witchcraft/ attempting to manifest events without reference or thought to God's will, are based on. That would leave the person who practiced witchcraft vulnerable to natural laws coming into effect in order to re balance creation. A bit like the Wicca threefold belief.

You say you pray for gods will to be done - I wonder what his master plan is because he doesn’t seem to be getting much right and his character is very dubious. He has to be worshipped - why?

You say you pray for gods will to be done - I wonder what his master plan is because he doesn’t seem to be getting much right and his character is very dubious. He has to be worshipped - why?

@Parker231, I believe we get suffering when we / the world acts apart and separately from God. The whole laws of creation mean that there has to be an opposite effect to counteract the harm done in order to re-establish balance. And many will be caught up in this. I believe we are designed for unity with God. With Him as the head.

As an analogy it is like our bodies and all the microscopic foreign bodies we host needing to work in harmony lead by our brains. Even though each cell has a nucleus and can act independently, if they do, we have overgrowth and get sick.

And many will be caught up in this

What do you mean by this?

But if the entire universe was intentionally generated by a conscious entity ("Source"), why would it be obsessed with just one species, granting human wishes

Yes, if a god had actually created all the planets and all the living species then surely he would not prioritise one planet or species over another?!

Surely he would want to look after ALL the life forms across ALL the planets where life exists!

I don't view prayers as wish fulfilment. They are more about coming into unity with God. I pray for God's will to be done.

But why? Why are you assuming (blindly) that God's will is in your best interest?

I personally don't want to bow to anyone's will.

Away with you!

You have spouted all sorts of pseudo-intellectual nonsense, quoting the names of various theories but never actually telling us the substance of the theory which leads me to suspect that you don't actually know what you are on about. You still haven't articulated to my satisfaction what you believe in. You have said "I have not detailed my full beliefs as that would fill several books" (19/03/2024 09:59) as if you have some deep and meaningful insight. Yet your scratch-the-surface beliefs seem to be "My concept of the Divine is nothing" (18/03/2024 11:11) and "the Divine is everything" (18/03/2024 16:54). As if that means anything!

Meanwhile, people post clear, logical stuff and you pull the the "you’re not expressing yourself very clearly" schtick, neatly implying that they are the problem. This is despite the fact that other posters manage to understand the concepts and even agree with them.
How come you are so clever that can understand "beliefs [that are] are esoteric so by definition no don’t think they are for the majority" (19/03/2024 09:51) see also the "several books" comment but can't understand a few sentences of plain English?

Like I say: you are a wind-up merchant. You can't explain what divinity is and therefore nobody can refute it (handy, eh). You evade questioning by pretending to not understand. You don't articulate your position but persistently ask questions of others despite the fact that the whole point of the discussion is your supposed divinity. It's not up to me to make your argument for you - that's your job.

What an utter load of twaddle.

The “Divinity is nothing and everything”simultaneously is a well know esoteric concept. If you want to know about it, I would point you in the direction of the many books filled on this subject in say Kabbalah. Yea it’s a complicated concept (hence why entire books are dedicated to it” Are you saying an important concept of Judaism doesn’t mean anything? Or is it you are incapable of understanding?

Which theories would you like to discuss in more depth? I am more than happy to. They majority of the people on this thread are erudite individuals, and I assume don’t need common concepts explaining to them or would have the sense to shout up at the time if they don’t understand.

Your previous post made no sense to me, hence I asked you to explain. You’re now flailing around screeching about posts from over a week a go!

I think I’ve more than adequately expressed what I think divinity is. Just because your cut and paste answers don’t fit that perspective and therefore you cabt argue against them must be terribly inconvenient for you, I understand your frustration.

Happy to recommend some books on Kabbalah if you want to get up to speed.

And what makes you think it doesn’t?

Hear, hear!

And then the OP comes back with more "read these books". She obviously can't describe her own theory, but just wants to make herself sound intellectual!

Lol. I’m not sure what the problem is with recommending books on a concept a poster is trying to understand. Are you against knowledge.

Oh I perfectly understand them thanks. A lot of that knowledge is internal. That is the way these concepts work. Interestingly enough Kabbalah is traditionally reserved for those over 40 with a deep understanding of the exoteric beliefs of Judaism so it’s little wonder people here can't grasp.it. Is there a specific point you would like to grasp. Many of the points involve a combination of study and meditation in order to understand so you will have to do that.

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein.

Lol! Yes he was the master of simple explanation. He was talking about scientific concepts though. As has been repeatedly explained here, there is a fundamental difference between this kind of knowledge and spiritual knowledge which has another layer. One that can only be fully understood internally.

So notwithstanding you’re trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole. I will ask again. Which specific concept would you like further explanation of?

Which specific concept would you like further explanation of?
You choose. Pick any concept of yours that you think would be most helpful / useful to explain.
In your own words.

I’m not the one who is having an issue understanding my points. How am I supposed to know which points you cannot understand. If you require further explanation on any particular point, just ask.

"Spiritual knowledge" does not have "another layer". It is simply different to knowledge, scientific or common. It requires no objective, scientific, observable, knowable evidence and seems to almost need to be unexplainable to people who don't believe in the "spiritual".

Mmm, so you’re trying to explain to someone who believes in the spiritual and has experienced of spiritual knowledge what those things mean and are. How do you know this when you don’t believe in it or have experience of it! Interesting

O please. I am attempting to summarise my understanding of what you've stated here. In a discussion, this is now your opportunity to correct anything that you think is wrong. I am not telling you what you think.

You will not say anything about your "spiritual knowledge" that anyone else can understand or analyse, you continually state that belief is a prerequisite for understanding. Or I must have my own "internal experience" of it somehow. But, to acquire knowledge, belief or personal experience is not necessary, as evidence and logic are minimally sufficient. So, you are discussing something that no-one else can access, as a definition of the way you are describing it.

@fedupandstuck

Or I must have my own "internal experience" of it somehow. But, to acquire knowledge, belief or personal experience is not necessary, as evidence and logic are minimally sufficient. So, you are discussing something that no-one else can access, as a definition of the way you are describing it.

Knowledge of God comes from coming to know God. To know God you must seek Him. Since He is Spirit, the way to seek Him is not the same as you would examine something material. Seeking God involves seeking Him through spiritual means.

The closest analogy I can think of is you can describe a person physically. You can subject them to all sorts of physical examinations. However, what you know about their thought processes and character is only through your experience with them, your own encounter with them. And then how well do you know them? Can you 100% reliably predict their behaviour?

But this is now the third time I’ve asked this morning what specific points anyone wants me to explain.

I realise your frustration that my comments do not tie into your world view, but I’ve acknowledged that time and again.

Anyway about to start work so happy to explain any points further that people want to specifically enquire about later on. So have a think, unless you want to carry on making unsubstantiated generalised claims.

Have a great day

Oh and no one can access my direct experience of anything. Let alone spiritual. That is why I’m saying people need to meditate on any points and reach their own inner knowledge

Seeking God involves seeking Him through spiritual means

Do you have any idea as to why God would have chosen such an unconventional and difficult to understand (for the majority of species he's supposedly created) method of 'seeking' him?