Atheists and proof

[Kdtym10]

On several threads, some atheists have said they would believe in God/the Divine if they had proof. If you’re an atheist what would that proof look like to you?

@Sleepmoreplease to continue, I think in summary the second part of your post is asking why I came to my position? Have atheists been rude to me, well yes, but do have Christian’s, so have Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus etc. The only way I set myself apart from atheists is that I believe in a higher power they don’t (because that is their only unifying factor). Do I find it hard to let go of conventional beliefs? No not really. My beliefs are only really tied to say Christianity in that it is an expression of a perennial philosophy which I believe permeates through all religions and spiritual belief systems. Because I grew up in a largely Christian (at least culturally) it is the language I use to express those things. The Christian story is the one o have most knowledge of so it’s easier to navigate round those themes. Does that make me a Christian - not in any orthodox sense.

Like most people with a sense of spirituality it’s a journey, I have been Christian (CofE) in a catholic school, I have had mediums, faith healers, tea total Methodists, baptists, CofE regular church goers in the close family. I have been a teenage agnostic, a teenage atheist as I explored my inner world. Eventually you find home and it’s a home I share with Christians, Muslims, Jews, agnostics, followers of Egyptian, Greek and Norse mythology, atheistic Satanists, theistic Satanists and Lucifarians, plain common garden atheists. Interestingly I have never, ever seen this cause an issue in that world (there’s lots of other ones😀). So no, I don’t think either of your speculations have any weight. It’s a matter of exploration and finding that home.

Aw just reading God is not great by Christopher Hitchins. It's horrendous how patriarchal institutions use religion and God as a reason to kill or be evil to others. Shocking. I was brought up Catholic but after hearing about a relative hiding in the wardrobe while having an affair with a priest the whole set up of repression, casting us as sinners and women as secondary absolutely sucks! So sad when someone you looked up to turn out to be invisible :(

This is Unit 731. It was perhaps one of the most evil places to have ever existed. It was run by the Japanese in WW2 by Surgeon General Shirō Ishii.

it was a place that carried out unspeakable experiments on men, women, children and babies in the name of science (trigger warning the Experiments section of the attached page contains extremely harrowing information). It was undoubtedly a nest of evil.

Now you could argue, well it was nothing to do with science (a bit like most religious wars are nothing to do with religion), but for the fact the US were so interested in this scientific research they hid the evil that went on there and gave Ishii impunity from trial in exchange for this research! Tats how much science was valued over justice, Operation Paperclip (I think it was) was very similar regarding Nazi scientific research.

So do you reject science because of the evil things done in its name?

Wars will always be fought.

It’s also important to draw the distinction between the Divine and religion.

Those wars were not fought in the name of science. Evil people did what evil people will do, whether religious or not.

I don't agree with what the US did, I think he should have been prosecuted and, well, being the US, he would have been executed. However, the research itself should not be burned, because there may be some elements which can be useful to humanity and save lives. It should not have been obtained in that way, but that is not the fault of "science". This is extremely muddy thinking.

It’s the same muddied thinking where people believe that God causes wars.

I don’t believe I said that the evil scientist Ishii caused any wars. It was about evil things being done in the name of science.

And that research should absolutely have been destroyed it is unethical to retain it. Trying to justify that is justifying the evil way in which it was obtained. If such a thing were to happen again, would the scientist think he would get away with doing whatever because he could sell the results in exchange for escaping justice.

Just because you can make excuses in your mind To not destroy the product of evil doesn’t mean we all can. This is a good example of science separating itself from morals

Your final paragraph seems to offer a possibility of there being a god but we don't have the capacity to prove it yet...?

Nobody has said that any gods cause wars (they don't exist, how can they?). People cause wars in the name of their gods though. Straw man argument at it's most pathetic.

To me this example related to the plane crash doesn't demonstrate at all that there are multiple equally valid truths - there is one objective truth. This example does rather effectively demonstrate that human beings cannot rely only upon their own innate feelings or impressions to reach the truth...

It is the search for objective truth through rationalism, which includes the scientific method, which actually gives us predictions which are useful and advance our understanding.

You might talk about subjective truth but ultimately it is rationalism that you rely upon to get you through your day, every day. When was the last time you walked into a table because you decided the subjective truth that it was imaginary was just as valid as objective reality?

You could write a reply to this in the air in front of you, instead of using an electronic device, and believe subjectively that it will still reach me... I just don't think that you will. Because you know that operating within objective reality is what actually works.

Well that escalated quickly😂

Lets just say people carry out evil in the name of science then.

But thats what I’m saying - there’s room for both kinds of truth. I would say both kinds of truth are necessary to get me through the day, one to survive and one to I'm giggling inside about the writing/drawing in the air though. I do that several times a day. 😀

Lets just say people carry out evil in the name of science then.

I don't think anyone has denied that. People can be evil. As a wise man once said;
Good people will always do good things.
Bad people will always do bad things.
But for good people to do bad things, that takes religion.

People cause wars in the name of religion. Probably be a safer world if people didn’t follow any religions .

People don’t become a better person by having a faith.

eg Instances such as the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition etc

also to add : the historical misuse of religious authority raise questions about the integrity of religious institutions

Not a proper comparison. Science can tell us about reality but not how to live within it. Religions on the other hand contain moral instruction. And the problem is some of these ethics are not always good.

What is it atheists want to gain on this forum? Someone to save them the news that Heaven and hell exist or Someone to save them from hell, but first to convince them? It does not work this way and God does not bow down to humans

Easter is coming, pick up a New testament and read some of the gospels and the book of Acts.

I disagree. Evil people use many causes to justify their actions. They can and do use the name of science to cause wars. Think of the Nazis and eugenics.
Just because an evil person says “I am going to war because of xxx,” it doesn’t mean xxx is the actual cause. The actual cause is the evil person.
Sadly the cause of wars is actually men wanting more power or land.

This is not true. Good people can do bad things if they are motivated by bad ideas. And religions are full of bad ideas. Science on the other hand is not an ethical framework. It is simply a scheme to understand reality. It is neither inherently good or bad.

Atheists were asked a question by the OP. Some have answered, most are probably hoping for an interesting discussion and an insight into other people's thought processes. Nothing at all to do with your imaginings about heaven, hell, gods or Easter.

I'm not looking to gain anything more than a moderately interesting way to pass the time.

So do you reject science because of the evil things done in its name?

@Kdtym10 Your logic makes no sense.

Science is neither good nor evil. People can act in good and evil ways. So of course scientists can do evil things.

But nobody has ever claimed that Science is benevolent and kind..!

God, however, is supposed to be benevolent and loving and kind!

and neither should humans bow down to any deity or supernatural being

But haven’t a lot of atheists in this thread (and previously on many others) been arguing that religion was a framework to view reality before science?