Why don’t schools teach philosophy as part of Religious Education

[Kdtym10]

Well my DS’s school calls it Life and Morality not RE, but when asked they confirmed it was just religion and no philosophy.

I would think that given say Platonism ‘s (esp later Platonisms) influence on the doctrines of all the Abrahamic faiths it would be useful to learn about this common theme, surely it’s best to teach about common denominators?

Or is there something objectionable in learning about the actual development of religion? To this end, schools very rarely (if ever) touch upon the very early church and the impact of politics on what then becomes the orthodox view. Surely a school should be equipping children with critical analysis skills.

in this instance it would be nice to think you’re mistaken. Unfortunately, I fear not!

Maybe it’s time for the trivium/quadrivium. 😀.

we don’t see wars fought over Jane Austin.

I myself have come close to starting serious conflicts by suggesting the 2005 Pride & Prejudice is far superior to the BBC miniseries.

On a serious note, 20 years ago I did a Philosophy of Religion model as part of RS A level which was pretty good. Overall A level was far more focused on "why do people believe these things and what are the real world impacts" and we spent most of our lessons (constructively) arguing. I'd be surprised if it's still like that though - the curriculum in England and Wales seems to have veered over to memorising "facts" rather than teaching kids to think in the past 14 years.

It's also possible I had unusually engaged teachers - I remember one of them telling us her degree course had been full of extremely religious people who just wanted to regurgitate the tenets of their particular faith rather than engage in meaningful discussion, and certainly the cover teacher we had at one point was one of those.

Anyway, yes I am very much in favour of kids learning philosophy at school. They should also be learning about politics from year 7, Modern Studies style. While the Scottish education system doesn't get everything right it at least starts from the principle that the goal is to teach young people how to become adults, not how to pass exams.

Thanks for those pointers, I will check them out.

They did in my DC's school. Philosophy was a massive, if not the main, part of the RE curriculum. Private school, so maybe they had more flexibility on exam boards and diverging from national curriculum.

Yes, I’m finding the responses here really helpful, I think my original question was too narrow, or perhaps a gateway into a much broad discussion regarding the way subjects are taught. I can’t speak for anything but my experience of the education system here in England but it’s depressing, homework these days seems to be AI generated multiple choice.

I think many schools do teach philosophy and ethics as part of the religious studies curriculum in ks3.
My dd2 is doing philosophy and religion for Alevel after studying it for gcse.
I think ks1 and 2 should be about developing an understanding of questioning, understanding and discussion... that should run through all areas of the curriculum.

Hey OP I agree with you thought that you brought you bright up about Socrates influencing religion isn't something I've heard or learnt about. Have you got any website, online creators or books you can recommend to delve into this?

I think my original
post mention Plato and the various schools of Platonic thought. Although I suppose there are several discussions to be had round Socrates depending on one’s view of him 😀.

Theres a lot out there re Platonism and Abrahamic faiths I’ll find some links if you’re interested.

When I did my primary teacher training in late 00s ‘Philiosophy for Children’ was a big thing pushed by the uni and used by local schools and we had to write an assignment on it. It wasn’t really about the history of philosophy or philosophisers but more about encouraging critical thinking and debate. This was the scheme used: https://p4c.com/

I don’t know if it’s still used in primary schools, I teach in an independent special school where we follow our own curriculum and we don’t have subject-specific lessons or really teach RE/ history/ geography in the classic sense so I’m definitely not planning philosophy lessons but I did use the scheme on teaching placement in mainstream primary schools back when I was training.

I totally agree with this. I am not religous but think it is important to teach a combination of the history and philosophy of religion rather than the religous teachings themselves. It provides a greater understanding of the world and introduces much more critical thinking at an earlier age. I have taught Philosophy A Level and agree that we need to start introducing the concepts to children at a much earlier age.

Sorry @Kdtym10 I meant Plate not Socrates. Shows how little i know!

no worries, just checking. There’s some wild theories out there about Plato inventing Socrates so just wanted to check.

Anyway - is a link to a discussion round late Platonism and Christianity. It forms part of a series of talks by good scholars re neo Platonism (Plotinus onwards) and the development of elements of tge Abrahamic faiths. There’s links in the talk to the other episodes.

Theres a a really good discussion somewhere I’m struggling to find atm. Also quite a few books. It’s a fairly well establish view.

I'm glad PP have mentioned P4C and I would urge any teachers to check it out.
For those who doubt that KS2 will get much out of it I have to say if its done properly they definitely do. Because the process starts with material that the children find engaging (a story or a picture or a news item) and the children themselves choose what it is about the story they want to discuss- which might be something like
is it important to be fair?
what is a good friend?
how should we treat a stranger?
its the skillful facilitation of the teacher that encourages deep listening and critical thinking rather than 'what does Plato have to say about fairness' which I think some people think 'teaching philosophy' would be.
The interesting thing I found when I was leading these sessions was that sometimes children who often struggled with the rest of the curriculum would concentrate really well and make insightful contributions.
Whereas I sometimes had very academically able students floundering because there was no obvious right or wrong answer.

That’s really interesting- thanks for sharing.

re children who struggle with the rest of the curriculum, I’m curious as to something. One thing I’ve noticed in the world9f ceremonial magic/esotericism which involves quite a bit of philosophy is that many people have adhd and/or largely resolved ptsd. Do you think the teaching of philosophy particularly engages kids with adhd because of their strengths in thinking outside the box? I see it’s helpful in adults a lot, wondered about kids?

It's simple really, most RE teachers want to teach religion as fact. Introducing philosophy would likely damage that kind of teaching, so they choose not to if they can.

What do you want left out of the current curriculum? Or are you proposing to add more time for Religious Education (which again would involve something else being left out). Most RE is one lesson a week.
In Scotland as pp have said, the exam subject is RMPS, and quite a few schools do the separate Higher in Philosophy. Neither of these are dealing with Plato or the origin of religion!
Students enjoy and benefit from improving critical thinking, thinking about some big issues in Philosophy, and also studying morality and the religious beliefs of people they share the world with. That's a big ask already for once a week.

Rofl

How do I teach Christianity, Sikhism, Islam, Buddhism and Humanism all as fact? As I taught all of those last year.

My dd did a GCSE in Philosophy & Ethics, which also covered religion.

🙋🏻‍♀️
head of RE here at a large secondary.

we do teach philosophy, of all sorts, woven through our curriculum from year 7.

but we get 60 mins a week. There’s only so much we can cover.

This might be the most ridiculous thing I’ve read for a long time…

I hope we reach the point where we teach philosophy instead of RE tbh, with religion being covered as a subsidiary topic. It's a social phenomenon like belief in the supernatural or astrology.

Actually, yes I would very much like more time dedicated to these subjects. Given the state of the world it would benefit everyone if people had a better understanding.

in answer to your question @Kdtym10 there may be an element of 'thinking outside the box'
but, I think more importantly, most classroom learning relies very heavily on reading and writing- students may have all kinds of interesting ideas, and be able to think very critically, and may even be able to express themselves with great articulacy BUT if they struggle to convey any of that via reading and writing it may all count for nothing. In a P4C session the amount of reading and writing is minimal and so students who are otherwise underestimated or even overlooked have a chance to shine.

Though this thread is out of date, I think it is very interesting OP.

https://www.sciencealert.com/teaching-children-philosophy-can-improve-their-reading-and-math-skills-study-finds

Excerpt:

A study published in the UK last year found that primary school children in years 4 and 5 who took part in a series of lessons devoted to discussing philosophical concepts didn't just learn about reasoning and the nature of reality – the classes delivered academic advantages in their regular school curriculum too.

The experiment was conducted by the Education Endowment Foundation (EEF) – an independent charity that seeks to close the gap between family income and educational attainment. Their trial involved more than 3,000 students across 48 primary schools in the UK taking weekly lessons in what's called Philosophy for Children (P4C).

The kids who took part ended up improving their maths and reading skills by around two months' of extra progress compared to students who weren't taking the classes.

What's remarkable about this result is that the classes in themselves weren't centred on achieving these kinds of outcomes. Instead, the specific aim of the lessons was to develop children's confidence in asking questions, constructing arguments, and having reasoned discussions with one another.

Sessions involved dialogues and questions focused around philosophical issues, exploring concepts such as truth, justice, knowledge, friendship, and fairness.