Why don’t schools teach philosophy as part of Religious Education

[Kdtym10]

Well my DS’s school calls it Life and Morality not RE, but when asked they confirmed it was just religion and no philosophy.

I would think that given say Platonism ‘s (esp later Platonisms) influence on the doctrines of all the Abrahamic faiths it would be useful to learn about this common theme, surely it’s best to teach about common denominators?

Or is there something objectionable in learning about the actual development of religion? To this end, schools very rarely (if ever) touch upon the very early church and the impact of politics on what then becomes the orthodox view. Surely a school should be equipping children with critical analysis skills.

I'm surprised at all the people against your idea. In Scotland you can do a higher in RMPS -Religious, Moral and Philosophical studies.

You think that what religion says and what religion does are the same?

Lol- no. But I’m interested in where you draw that line, because that’s important as to whether the understanding of different school’s philosophy and their impact on religious thought would have an impact on practice.

Yes, on the face of it, I can’t see any convincing reason so far as to why. There’s an undercurrent of “oh philosophy is too complicated for kids” yet there are several examples on this thread of where the subjects are combined.

I find it rather depressing in how siloed the English curriculum is

I’m not saying that early philosophy does not influence modern practice, absolutely it does. Just that I would personally spend scant resources on teaching more about other contextual factors - like who wields power and why, and the interplay of that with thought and practice - than the influence of earlier philosophy.

All far too big a question for a post anyway 😁. On the first day of my degree we were asked “what is religion?” and we were still arguing about it at graduation!

My objection wasn't at all that “oh philosophy is too complicated for kids”. The contrary, I think that its essence, when people begin its journey, is something simple, creative and naive, that shouldn't be extinguished by (eg) schooling in Platonic forms.
And when it is eventually taught, I doubt that ancient philosophy would be the ideal starting point. As I recall, my degree began with the history of British empiricism, which bears more cultural affinity to our current intellectual context than ancient thought does, so is more likely to match the instinctive intellectual starting point that young people bring to it.

@Kdtym10 he does, we are a religious family so he's not averse to that side, but ultimately it's a clear fit.

Was just coming on to say this!

The whole of the national curriculum is depressing imo. Not enough breadth and very narrow focus

Totally agree that schools should spend much more time on the development of religion and the context, and maybe, in hindsight, that would have been a better, more rounded question to ask. It sounds like we have different views in the weight philosophy brought into that development as part of the context, which is fine, I would argue, it’s really impossible to separate all those factors anyway given how interwoven they are. I don’t think we concentrate enough on the history of ideas, of the framework in which we live anyway.

Now “what is religion” would make an interesting thread😀.

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you said. Yes I can see your point re making it relevant to our current framework.

However, given Platonism’s (and potentially more broadly Hellenistic thoughts) impact on the Abrahamic religions I think it would be important to use that to help understand the worLd view in which religions develop, together with, as a PP has eloquently pointed out, other contextual considerations. In hindsight my question was, maybe, too narrow although still stands, I think, as a focused discussion.

Do you think it would be more helpful to teach a more broadly than the current subject led split? Do you think there’s enough focus on the development of ideas?

My kids' schools do (but they're private).

It's called RPE (religion, philosophy and ethics).

Absolutely, there’s very little effort to teach a “unity of ideas” either.

And do they find that a helpful way of teaching?

Our school does teach it as part of the KS2 curriculum, I taught it's for the first time this year and it was really hard to simplify it to a level they could access it. I think a lot of it went over their heads. I'm not convinced primary aged children are capable of understanding and using the socratic method and most are not bothered about answering big philosophical questions- they're generally to rigid in their thinking at this age. I really like the idea behind it but I think it's best saved until secondary.

NRTFT but just came on to say at my dds' secondary school, the RE is called RP (Religion and Philosophy) and is a compulsory GCSE subject for all students.

It sounds like we have different views in the weight philosophy brought into that development as part of the context, which is fine, I would argue, it’s really impossible to separate all those factors anyway given how interwoven they are.

And actually, I almost don’t care exactly what my kids learn, but what I want them to be able to do when leaving school is exactly this. Understand different opinions, the complexity of subjects, agreeing that different people can have different views and understanding what might go in to those views. Philosophy can be part of this. Modern schooling just seems to be getting further from this and closer to rote learning. Hopefully I’m wrong about that.

I've no idea, since I'm neither a teacher nor a child in one of the classes!

As a parent though I think it's a great idea and I'm all for kids getting a taste of lots of different subjects.

I think it depends on the school and what exam board they choose. DCs school did include philosophy and ethics as part of RE. I know many who don't want RE on the curriculum at all but there is so much more to it if it is taught in the right way. DCs found this a very interesting topic that fostered discussion and critical thinking and also helped with understanding of the wider world and essay writing development.

At DS' school it's called REP. Its Religion, Ethics and Philosophy.

This!
In my class of 10 year olds, I can imagine about 3 children would get it whilst the other 27 would think ‘what on earth is she going on about, is it playtime soon?’
When we have children who still can’t fluently read or write, or who have poor mental arithmetic skills, or who can’t catch or throw a ball, in classrooms with no TA support and 3 children with EHCPs whilst 5 others are waiting for CAMHS appointments for ADHD assessments and a further 3 children really need behaviour support, philosophy would come way down the list of things we should be teaching.

DS is 15 and is studying Religious, Moral and Philosophical Studies (RMPS) in Scotland. He wants to go one with the subject to Higher - the level of qualifications which affects university entry.

This year he has been studying a range of topics across the three themes - Judaism as the religion bit which is mainly factual around beliefs, practices and traditions. Moral is about medical ethics, saviour siblings etc. Philosophical is a bit of a crossover with religious as they talk about miracles - what's a miracle, is there a scientific/religious explanation, how miracles are seen in different religions or regions of the world. It's great to develop critical thinking and putting opposing points of view unlike many other subjects where it's about regurgitating fact and there is a right/wrong answer.

At Higher they look at whether God exists, nature of good or evil and the other "big questions".

There is no national curriculum for RE in England. The curriculum is agreed at local authority level by SACRE (Standing Advisory Committee for RE), so there is a lot of variation (in quality and content).

There is a national shift to move towards a 'worldview' approach ie rather than just teach 6 main religions, it is more inclusive and the recommendation is including content about developing your own world view and where it comes from.
https://www.commissiononre.org.uk/final-report-religion-and-worldviews-the-way-forward-a-national-plan-for-re/

My DCs started studying moral philosophy as part of their general RE classes in Year 9 which they loved. Not that they would have called it 'moral philosophy', but they basically spent half their RE lessons debating moral issues. DD is considering studying 'Philosophy, Religion and Ethics' for A level, most exam boards link philosophy and religion at A level.

In terms of teaching philosophy to primary age kids, it's possible and they love it. It's known as P4C (philosophy for children) and organisations like SAPERE and The Philosophy Foundation are worth checking out.
The focus is not on teaching the ideas of philosophers but for developing critical thinking. Absolutely should be a subject in itself. These are core skills for living a meaningful, flourishing life in a pluralistic society.