I don't understand why in the Church of England and Catholic masses we talk about Jesus being the king of Jews....

[confusedaboutreligion]

Surely then if we follow Jesus and his teachings we should be Jewish rather than Catholic or C of E?? Also why in a C of E service do we say "we believe in one holy and Catholic church" during the creed? Surely that is then saying we only believe in the catholic church (yet said during a C of E service)

V. Confused.....

Yes confused that is right. Furthermore it is propecised in the old testament that the Jews would be blinded by God to seeing who the messiah was. I think it is something like 1% of Jews have converted to christianity

Orthodox Judaism has Matrilineal descent of the faith. reform accepts either. neither take any notice of the new testament, and why should they? It isn't their book

There is an inconsistency on the Jewish website - one of the reasons given for Jesus not being the Messiah is that 'he was not descended through his paternal line from David, which the Messiah would be. Jesus was the son of a virgin, with God as his father so therefore is not descended paternally from David'.

But I'm sure in Isaiah it says 'Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son. And shall call his name Emmanuel - God with us.'. Which implies that that is exactly what the Messiah would be - the son of a virgin. So the paternal heritage would never be fulfilled anyway!

(Handel's Messiah really helps with quotes!).

I think I need a history lesson on World religion! Crikey, it really is confusing/bewildering....did any of you have an experience that called you back to the church?(My question is what church, what religion) but I guess that is my journey...

the paternal thing is in the old testament, not new????

Confused yes I felt called to have a close relationship with God again

TS, 'And we Like Sheep'

LOLOL great out of context!

I suppose because Joseph was a Jew (descended from David's line) and Jesus was brought up as his son then Jesus would be declared Jewish. Apparantly this is why the jewish church went to the mother route - because paternity can be lied about?

Information from the Old Testiment on the matrilineal decent issue. NB I'm not Jewish, but a (very) lapsed Baptist.

As I say, Reform Judiasm accepts either parent, but the original tradition was thet you were Jewish if your Mother was a Jew.

'The Torah does not always state every law explicitly. In the case of Matrilineal Descent, the practice is derived from Deuteronomy 7: 4, "Because he will lead astray your son from before Me" To understand this verse, look at the preceding verse, which states: "And you shall not intermarry with them, your daughter you shall not give to his son and his daughter you shall not take for your son". Verse 4 should have stated "Because SHE will lead astray your son", for the non-Jewish girl that your son married ('your' meaning Jewish) should be the one that would lead your son astray. So who is the 'HE'? It might be the girl's father, but in general, women leave their father's house and live in their husband's house; they would then not be living with her father. Hence, it would not make sense for the girl's father to lead "your son" astray if your son doesn't live with him.

The Rabbis concluded that 'HE' is the man that your daughter married, and 'your son' mentioned in verse 4 is your grandchild, meaning Jewish grandchild. Thus, verse 4 is referring back to the middle section of verse 3. It reads like this, "your daughter you shall not give to his son because he will lead astray your son" This shows that the child of a Jewish girl and a non-Jewish boy will be Jewish.

It is not uncommon for the Torah to refer to a grandchild as an actual child. For instance, Kings I 15: 11 states, " And Asa did that which was correct in the eyes of God just like David his father". David was not Asa's father. He was his great-great-grandfather.

Additionally, Leviticus 24:10 speaks of the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man as being "among the community of Israel" (ie, a Jew). On the other hand, in Ezra 10:2-3, the Jews returning to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews. '

Cargirl that's an interesting take on Judaism.......Did your call for a relationship with God take you back to a religion you had left?? As I said I was catholic as a child but don't agree now with some of the catholic ways and so don't feel that is the religion for me...am trying C of E now but again, not sure...how do you know?

I became a christian in an independent/evangelical church after having gone to a CofE for a year and not learning/understanding anything. I now go to a baptish free church (as opposed to a baptist high church)but I don't 100% agree with the way the church I attend do some things.

I couldn't be part of a church that practised infant baptism rather than believers baptism because it's only believer baptism that is scriptural.

Judaism by descent..........

Biblical Times

Matrilineal descent, the passing down of a child's Jewish identity via the mother, is not a biblical principle. In biblical times, many Jewish men married non-Jews, and their children's status was determined by the father's religion.

According to Professor Shaye Cohen of Brown University:
"Numerous Israelites heroes and kings married foreign women: for example, Judah married a Canaanite, Joseph an Egyptian, Moses a Midianite and an Ethiopian, David a Philistine, and Solomon women of every description. By her marriage with an Israelite man a foreign women joined the clan, people, and religion of her husband. It never occurred to anyone in pre-exilic times to argue that such marriages were null and void, that foreign women must "convert" to Judaism, or that the off-spring of the marriage were not Israelite if the women did not convert."

I was RC until well into my 20s, but felt called back to church, but to the C of E, as a result of an answer to prayer.

And to answer one of your other questions, catholic means universal, so when we pray "we believe in one holy and catholic church", we are praying that we should be one church, not split up across many denominations. Its a lower case c rather than upper case C.

So a child with either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father is a Jew, the principle is their in the bible for either to be valid, it is a man made law that excludes children with only a jewish father to not be Jewish as it is clearly biblical that they are Jewish and part of the nation of Israel!!!

See this is my thing, I felt Very strongly that my DC should be baptised into the church.....BUT just reading your view cargirl actually makes me realise that the reason I did it was for me, and not perhaps what they would wish for when they are older. Yet, if anything was to happen to them, I still believe the old catholic notion that they wouldn't go to heaven.....told you I was very confused....(I am going to have to go now to feed the DC's but I am really enjoying this conversation and will be back later after 7pm) Its good not to be judged/taken for a fool/laughed at here.....

as I say, reform do accept father or mother, it is a matter of much debate. But many, many orthodox take the matrilinial decent line.

so catholic is a generic term for religion??!

err the catholic term means something very specific but I can't remember what!!!!

Mb it's just a shame that the orthadox are wrong though isn't it?

Catholic with a small c is generic for Western Christian faiths, yes

Actually, come to think of it, I think catholic also includes the Orthodox Christian churches eg Russian and Greek

"one holy catholic and apostolic church"

I wouldn't be so rude as to say that they are wrong. they have their own beliefs which , given that I am not Jewish, are really none of my buisness. I'm interested in what they belive, that is all.

Yes Marina it's all christain believers but of course most people think of the Catholic church which is different.

Well Mb I don't think any one "religion" has it right in terms of what they say the believe.

Neither do I. And consequently I don't think that they are any more 'wrong' than they are 'right'