Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Is there an answer?

161 replies

bluekelebek · 03/12/2023 14:23

I wasn't raised religious, and tbh I dont know what/if I do believe in.. but is there an answer to - if there is a God, why is there so much suffering? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do bad people seem to get on with life with no repercussions, regardless of thei actions?

OP posts:
Kdtym10 · 13/12/2023 09:11

ErrolTheDragon · 13/12/2023 08:54

Whereas, what real answer does the religious mindset typically give to those sorts of questions? Too often, IME, a quick glib one or an unsatisfying 'it's a mystery' cop-out.

I couldn’t answer that, I’m not religious

Kdtym10 · 13/12/2023 09:13

ErrolTheDragon · 13/12/2023 08:33

Why do we get moved by art? Why can a tune bring us to tears? Why does one person stand for hours staring at a painting transfixed yet another walks by?

Ah, now those are interesting questions I'm curious about. The scientist can at least hope to find answers to some of these things.

I guess we can all hope for lots of things. I have my answer already on these questions.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/12/2023 09:19

I guess we can all hope for lots of things. I have my answer already on these questions.

I'd genuinely like to know what your answers are.

Kdtym10 · 13/12/2023 10:05

ErrolTheDragon · 13/12/2023 09:19

I guess we can all hope for lots of things. I have my answer already on these questions.

I'd genuinely like to know what your answers are.

Because for me art is a connection to the divine. Creation is man exercising his divinity whilst simultaneously channeling divine inspiration.

Imagination is the gateway through which we touch divinity and divinity touches us.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/12/2023 10:39

Ah, ok. In my previous post where I used the word 'religious', I should more accurately have said 'supernaturalistic'.

'The divine' can mean a great variety of things to different people. This unfortunately leaves the word pretty much devoid of any real meaning if you don't have any sense of it yourself.

What you describe sounds very nice. But some people create awful things. Some people have unpleasant imaginations of varying types and degree. Many works of art are dystopian. How do these connect to 'the divine'?

Kdtym10 · 13/12/2023 12:29

ErrolTheDragon · 13/12/2023 10:39

Ah, ok. In my previous post where I used the word 'religious', I should more accurately have said 'supernaturalistic'.

'The divine' can mean a great variety of things to different people. This unfortunately leaves the word pretty much devoid of any real meaning if you don't have any sense of it yourself.

What you describe sounds very nice. But some people create awful things. Some people have unpleasant imaginations of varying types and degree. Many works of art are dystopian. How do these connect to 'the divine'?

Ah yes, I see your point. At this juncture it would probably be helpful to give you my understanding of what I mean by “the divine.” To me, this term means the source of everything. In Neoplatonism it’s called The One. Others refer to it as The Source, The All.

Everything emanates from this source, including us. It contains what we perceive as good and evil. It is the potential for everything. It is simultaneously nothing and everything. The All is both separate and part of us. I believe when Jesus spoke and said “ye are Gods” referring to the Old Testament teachings this is what he meant. - well that’s the quick over view it’s slightly more nuanced.

So when a person creates what you class as a terrible piece of art that is equally divine to me. Acts of evil can be divine because the are equally a reflection of the source, the potentiality.

Human nature has classed things as good and bad, right and wrong as the serve or hinder our society and human nature.

So to me divinity is something both outside ourselves and within.

Museum10667 · 13/12/2023 20:41

Kdtym10 · 13/12/2023 12:29

Ah yes, I see your point. At this juncture it would probably be helpful to give you my understanding of what I mean by “the divine.” To me, this term means the source of everything. In Neoplatonism it’s called The One. Others refer to it as The Source, The All.

Everything emanates from this source, including us. It contains what we perceive as good and evil. It is the potential for everything. It is simultaneously nothing and everything. The All is both separate and part of us. I believe when Jesus spoke and said “ye are Gods” referring to the Old Testament teachings this is what he meant. - well that’s the quick over view it’s slightly more nuanced.

So when a person creates what you class as a terrible piece of art that is equally divine to me. Acts of evil can be divine because the are equally a reflection of the source, the potentiality.

Human nature has classed things as good and bad, right and wrong as the serve or hinder our society and human nature.

So to me divinity is something both outside ourselves and within.

but the whole concept of "divinity" is human envisioned and what we think is the source, could instead only be the beginning of trying to understand and conceptualise what the source is.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 13/12/2023 21:03

Ah so you concede that there is an element of human existence that lies beyond that which can be measured, quantified and repeated?

Yes, of course (although I'm not sure why you added the 'repeated' bit) . But that doesn't mean it's divine or supernatural.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 13/12/2023 21:06

Ah yes, I see your point. At this juncture it would probably be helpful to give you my understanding of what I mean by “the divine.” To me, this term means the source of everything. In Neoplatonism it’s called The One. Others refer to it as The Source, The All.

Do you mean god? Because 'divine' means 'of god'.

Kdtym10 · 13/12/2023 22:09

Museum10667 · 13/12/2023 20:41

but the whole concept of "divinity" is human envisioned and what we think is the source, could instead only be the beginning of trying to understand and conceptualise what the source is.

Edited

Well quite

Kdtym10 · 13/12/2023 22:11

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 13/12/2023 21:03

Ah so you concede that there is an element of human existence that lies beyond that which can be measured, quantified and repeated?

Yes, of course (although I'm not sure why you added the 'repeated' bit) . But that doesn't mean it's divine or supernatural.

Auto correct vs replicable 😀.

it’s doesn’t exclude divinity. What’s your explanation?

Kdtym10 · 13/12/2023 22:20

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 13/12/2023 21:06

Ah yes, I see your point. At this juncture it would probably be helpful to give you my understanding of what I mean by “the divine.” To me, this term means the source of everything. In Neoplatonism it’s called The One. Others refer to it as The Source, The All.

Do you mean god? Because 'divine' means 'of god'.

Divine means being of or like God or gods. As a perennialist I find it suits my mindset better.

God with a capital G is taken as the Christian/Jewish God, god is taken as pagan and therefore excludes God. I also believe in the divinity of mankind. The word divine covers all these variants and therefore I prefer it.

But I don’t really see your point. What is it?

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 13/12/2023 22:23

What’s your explanation?

My explanation for what? Human beings are a messy, complex jumble of genetics, personality, experiences, feelings and self-awareness. Not all of that is very measurable or quantifiable. That still doesn't mean there's anything supernatural about it. Or a 'source'.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 13/12/2023 22:25

But I don’t really see your point. What is it?

It wasn't a point, it was a question. I was just asking if by 'source' and 'divinity' you meant 'god'.

Lilacdressinggown · 13/12/2023 22:29

Kdtym10 · 13/12/2023 22:20

Divine means being of or like God or gods. As a perennialist I find it suits my mindset better.

God with a capital G is taken as the Christian/Jewish God, god is taken as pagan and therefore excludes God. I also believe in the divinity of mankind. The word divine covers all these variants and therefore I prefer it.

But I don’t really see your point. What is it?

Edited

That’s interesting. I always though God with a capital G is used in place of a name (in the same way as my mum/dad or Mum and Dad).
eg God loved us so much he sent us his son.
Or my god my god why have you forsaken me?
I thought it was purely grammatical.
I am a Christian if that makes a difference.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 13/12/2023 23:25

God with a capital G is taken as the Christian/Jewish God, god is taken as pagan and therefore excludes God.

It's the same word though. Anyway... it seems that you have quite an individual definition of divinity. When you say that mankind has divinity, do you mean than humans are gods, or god-like? If so,in what sense?

Kdtym10 · 14/12/2023 04:53

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 13/12/2023 22:23

What’s your explanation?

My explanation for what? Human beings are a messy, complex jumble of genetics, personality, experiences, feelings and self-awareness. Not all of that is very measurable or quantifiable. That still doesn't mean there's anything supernatural about it. Or a 'source'.

And that’s your perspective. Mine is different.

but if everyone recognises that not everything is measurable, quantifiable and replicable, then I don’t really get how the existence of divinity needs this kind of “evidence” before people will accept the existence of it.

if it’s not this kind of evidence, what type of evidence do people want?

Kdtym10 · 14/12/2023 04:54

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 13/12/2023 22:25

But I don’t really see your point. What is it?

It wasn't a point, it was a question. I was just asking if by 'source' and 'divinity' you meant 'god'.

Ok hopefully this is now clarified

Kdtym10 · 14/12/2023 04:58

Lilacdressinggown · 13/12/2023 22:29

That’s interesting. I always though God with a capital G is used in place of a name (in the same way as my mum/dad or Mum and Dad).
eg God loved us so much he sent us his son.
Or my god my god why have you forsaken me?
I thought it was purely grammatical.
I am a Christian if that makes a difference.

It’s the distinction I was taught. Most other gods I can think of have names. Whereas the Christian god is often just called God (well there’s lots of names in the OT).

As that is the distinction to me I’m more comfortable with divinity.

Kdtym10 · 14/12/2023 05:03

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 13/12/2023 23:25

God with a capital G is taken as the Christian/Jewish God, god is taken as pagan and therefore excludes God.

It's the same word though. Anyway... it seems that you have quite an individual definition of divinity. When you say that mankind has divinity, do you mean than humans are gods, or god-like? If so,in what sense?

It’s a fairly common definition in more esoteric circles. I would say my definition fits fairly well in those circles.

in what sense? They are both gods and god like being part of the divine yet removed from the source.

anotherlevel · 10/01/2024 12:25

bluekelebek · 03/12/2023 21:58

@Cookiesandbeans this is the one I hear the most. This life is a test and the rewards are in the afterlife.. I dont know what to believe.

Hi OP have you tried researching different religions and seeing which makes more sense to you? You could visit different places of worship and see how you feel.

VincitVeritas1 · 11/01/2024 01:37

As Professor John Lennox , from Oxford University, says "You cannot hold God responsible for all disease and our Lord Himself made that perfectly plain to His disciples, who had believed this view [suffering caused by divine retribution]. They came across a man blind from birth and the disciples asked Christ, “Who did sin? This man or his parents, that he should be born blind?”. They had attributed it, according to popular thinking, either to the man or to his ancestors. It was a kind of insipient doctrine of karma and Christ said, “Neither”. So I believe that it is false to say that all illness is a result of God’s discipline or anything else."
Professor John Lennox

If you believe the gospel, then God came down to earth and became a human being, suffered and died for us, out of love. He spent much of His time here healing people, as the lyrics of the Christmas song illustrate:

Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Would one day walk on water?
Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Would save our sons and daughters?
Did you know that your baby boy
Has come to make you new?
This child that you delivered, will soon deliver you
Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Will give sight to a blind man?
Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Will calm the storm with his hand?
Did you know that your baby boy
Has walked where angels trod?
When you kiss your little baby
You kiss the face of God
The blind will see, the deaf will hear
The dead will live again
The lame will leap, the dumb will speak
The praises of the Lamb
Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Is Lord of all creation?
Mary, did you know that your baby boy
Would one day rule the nations?
Did you know that your baby boy
Is heaven's perfect Lamb?
That sleeping child you're holding is the great, I Am

Jesus' arrival was predicted around 700 years before His birth, in the book of Isaiah (chapter 9) and speaks of His future reign in the Messianic Age:

Every warrior’s boot used in battle
and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning,
will be fuel for the fire.
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.

God will make everything new, in the end:

"...knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfil his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
(2 Peter 3:3-13).

Why hasn't He stepped in before? I believe, as this passage indicates, that it is to delay judgement and give as many people as possible the chance of salvation.

ErrolTheDragon · 11/01/2024 07:01

Nice selective quoting from John 9 there.Confused

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

VincitVeritas1 · 11/01/2024 18:50

ErrolTheDragon · 11/01/2024 07:01

Nice selective quoting from John 9 there.Confused

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

I wouldn't say it was selective. The main point he was making is that the man had not been born blind due to some fault of his own, or sins his ancestors may have committed. The last part relates to this blind man, not the blind in general.

Jason118 · 13/01/2024 16:01

If you believe in a god then you can consider probably dozens of explanations, as listed above by many. If you don't believe then it's much simpler (it's our fault), but less profitable than most western religions.