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Philosophy/religion

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Original poster

Is there an answer?

161 replies

bluekelebek · 03/12/2023 14:23

I wasn't raised religious, and tbh I dont know what/if I do believe in.. but is there an answer to - if there is a God, why is there so much suffering? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do bad people seem to get on with life with no repercussions, regardless of thei actions?

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 12/12/2023 16:57

Surely if this all purely reason computers can be just as originally creative as humans. All you need to do is plug in all the relevant information.

We don't have 'all the relevant information' though. And quite a lot of what's been 'plugged into' the recent large language model chatbots is misinformation...

At some point artificial intelligences may well be developed which have true creativity, but they don't yet. The human brain has been evolving for millions of years, we've only been working in silico for a few decades!

Kdtym10 · 12/12/2023 18:57

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 12/12/2023 15:13

I'm bemused at the assertion that the existence or absence of evidence, observable, measurable, quantifiable data, experiments which can be replicated infinitely, and so on, is all just a "reflection of my view on life", but then, this is far from the first time in this sub-forum that a poster has implied that the nature of the universe is determined by human whims and desires.

It's beyond the ridiculous.

You might well be bemused. But I’m equally bemused by someone thinking the universe only exists in terms of quantifiable, measurable data. It sounds terrible. I wouldn’t find that a life worth living at all.

What you use to measure the universe with with determine it’s nature.

You might find such notion’s ridiculous, I find them beautiful.

SwooningCamille · 12/12/2023 18:58

FestiveAuntFanny · 03/12/2023 15:34

There is a simple answer, just not a comforting one: there is no god, things happen randomly and there's no justice but imperfect human justice.

Anything else is a fairytale that people tell themselves to feel better.

Personally I have found that facing up to this doesn't make life meaningless, or lacking in spirit and wonder, or a desire to make things better and to live up to a code of morals. It just puts the onus for those things where it belongs - on us.

Well said.

Kdtym10 · 12/12/2023 18:59

ErrolTheDragon · 12/12/2023 16:57

Surely if this all purely reason computers can be just as originally creative as humans. All you need to do is plug in all the relevant information.

We don't have 'all the relevant information' though. And quite a lot of what's been 'plugged into' the recent large language model chatbots is misinformation...

At some point artificial intelligences may well be developed which have true creativity, but they don't yet. The human brain has been evolving for millions of years, we've only been working in silico for a few decades!

So you have faith that computers will be creative? You believe that humans are essentially just computers with more years of development under their belt.

ErrolTheDragon · 12/12/2023 19:09

So you have faith that computers will be creative?
No, I said 'may'. I wouldn't rule it out but...
You believe that humans are essentially just computers with more years of development under their belt.
No. I don't see a shred of evidence for humans, like all living entities, being anything other than material beings obeying the laws of chemistry and physics. But perhaps theres a bit more complexity in evolved biological beings in a physical body awash with hormones and other chemicals than would be likely to emerge in human-made systems - not anytime particularly soon, at any rate.

Do you believe there's more than that? Why? What's the evidence? What's the mechanism?

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 12/12/2023 19:13

'Computers might one day be able to create things' is not the same as saying 'Humans are essentially computers'. There are obviously differences between humans and computers other than creativity.

Kdtym10 · 12/12/2023 19:47

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 12/12/2023 19:13

'Computers might one day be able to create things' is not the same as saying 'Humans are essentially computers'. There are obviously differences between humans and computers other than creativity.

So what are these differences?

Kdtym10 · 12/12/2023 19:51

ErrolTheDragon · 12/12/2023 19:09

So you have faith that computers will be creative?
No, I said 'may'. I wouldn't rule it out but...
You believe that humans are essentially just computers with more years of development under their belt.
No. I don't see a shred of evidence for humans, like all living entities, being anything other than material beings obeying the laws of chemistry and physics. But perhaps theres a bit more complexity in evolved biological beings in a physical body awash with hormones and other chemicals than would be likely to emerge in human-made systems - not anytime particularly soon, at any rate.

Do you believe there's more than that? Why? What's the evidence? What's the mechanism?

I believe it because of personal experience. That is the only evidence I need, why do you need more? why does there need to be a mechanism?

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 12/12/2023 19:58

So what are these differences?

Off the top of my head...

Humans have a physical body. They feel pain. They experience ill health. They age and die and have awareness of their mortality. They have family and friends. Female humans can give birth. They have a sexuality. They have emotions. They have morality. They have religions. They have experiences. Their memories are fallible and selective. They have personalities. They can appreciate beauty, music, art on an emotional level. That is probably enough to be going on with...

ErrolTheDragon · 12/12/2023 19:59

I believe it because of personal experience. That is the only evidence I need, why do you need more? why does there need to be a mechanism?

The trouble with that is, 'personal experience' is, by definition subjective.
Other peoples 'personal experience' will be entirely different.
They don't really answer the OPs question 'if there is a God, why is there so much suffering?'

Kdtym10 · 12/12/2023 20:01

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 12/12/2023 19:58

So what are these differences?

Off the top of my head...

Humans have a physical body. They feel pain. They experience ill health. They age and die and have awareness of their mortality. They have family and friends. Female humans can give birth. They have a sexuality. They have emotions. They have morality. They have religions. They have experiences. Their memories are fallible and selective. They have personalities. They can appreciate beauty, music, art on an emotional level. That is probably enough to be going on with...

But with the exceptions of emotions what do these things have to do with creativity. What are emotions?

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 20:08

I believe it because of personal experience. That is the only evidence I need, why do you need more? why does there need to be a mechanism?

This is your basic religious cop-out. My feelz are that <insert favoured deity here> exists, and you can't prove otherwise. So ner ner na ner ner...

Kdtym10 · 12/12/2023 20:11

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 20:08

I believe it because of personal experience. That is the only evidence I need, why do you need more? why does there need to be a mechanism?

This is your basic religious cop-out. My feelz are that <insert favoured deity here> exists, and you can't prove otherwise. So ner ner na ner ner...

Lol! Who says I’m religious. Is that your basic cop out? I don’t understand something so I’m going to try and ridicule it. Fantastic use of reasoned debate😂

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 20:20

Now you're being ridiculous!

Carry on though, it's hilarious!

Kdtym10 · 12/12/2023 20:22

HannibalHeyes · 12/12/2023 20:20

Now you're being ridiculous!

Carry on though, it's hilarious!

Why ridiculous? You’re hilarious too- at least we are keeping each other amused😃

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 12/12/2023 22:50

Kdtym10 · 12/12/2023 18:57

You might well be bemused. But I’m equally bemused by someone thinking the universe only exists in terms of quantifiable, measurable data. It sounds terrible. I wouldn’t find that a life worth living at all.

What you use to measure the universe with with determine it’s nature.

You might find such notion’s ridiculous, I find them beautiful.

Show quote history

I’m equally bemused by someone thinking the universe only exists in terms of quantifiable, measurable data. It sounds terrible

I'm assuming this is a barb aimed at me, which I'm confused about because at no point have I claimed the universe "only exists" in terms of quantifiable data, merely that I don't understand why anyone would discard and dismiss quantifiable data and observable fact in favour of flights of fancy which aren't grounded in anything more than, as another poster puts it, personal "feels".

As I said, the universe doesn't give a flying fuck about my existence, yours, or anyone else's, and what you or I might "think" or desire, or wish for, or hope for, plays absolutely no part in how the universe is formed or how it functions. What actually matters is what happens in practice. There's nothing "terrible" about reality, and I honestly find it quite bizarre that you wouldn't find life worth living without fanciful notions when reality itself is plenty interesting and wonderous enough, even if it ultimately has explanations which do not involve the supernatural, deities and so on.

It's that thing about needless added complexity. There is no need to go looking for fanciful explanations for things which have perfectly viable mundane ones. The universe remains perfectly functional and fascinating without the supernatural, so there's no need whatsoever to go adding it, and especially in the case of deities and creators all you achieve is to introduce a whole heap of questions that were not present before, and the universe doesn't become any better explained for it.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 12/12/2023 23:03

I’m equally bemused by someone thinking the universe only exists in terms of quantifiable, measurable data. It sounds terrible

Nobody said that. Our emotions and personalities aren't 'quantifiable, measurable data', for example. And what do you mean by 'It sounds terrible'? It's all around you. You can see whether it's terrible or not. The things that are terrible about it don't magically stop being terrible just because you believe in unseen forces or deities.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 12/12/2023 23:06

But with the exceptions of emotions what do these things have to do with creativity.

Nothing. I was pointing out the differences between humans and computers that aren't to do with creativity, to demonstrate that you were wrong to say that if computers were to become able to be creative, then humans are just like computers. They aren't.

Kdtym10 · 13/12/2023 05:43

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 12/12/2023 23:06

But with the exceptions of emotions what do these things have to do with creativity.

Nothing. I was pointing out the differences between humans and computers that aren't to do with creativity, to demonstrate that you were wrong to say that if computers were to become able to be creative, then humans are just like computers. They aren't.

We were talking about humans and computers being the same as each other in terms of creativity

Kdtym10 · 13/12/2023 05:45

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 12/12/2023 23:03

I’m equally bemused by someone thinking the universe only exists in terms of quantifiable, measurable data. It sounds terrible

Nobody said that. Our emotions and personalities aren't 'quantifiable, measurable data', for example. And what do you mean by 'It sounds terrible'? It's all around you. You can see whether it's terrible or not. The things that are terrible about it don't magically stop being terrible just because you believe in unseen forces or deities.

Ah so you concede that there is an element of human existence that lies beyond that which can be measured, quantified and repeated?

Kdtym10 · 13/12/2023 05:57

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 12/12/2023 22:50

I’m equally bemused by someone thinking the universe only exists in terms of quantifiable, measurable data. It sounds terrible

I'm assuming this is a barb aimed at me, which I'm confused about because at no point have I claimed the universe "only exists" in terms of quantifiable data, merely that I don't understand why anyone would discard and dismiss quantifiable data and observable fact in favour of flights of fancy which aren't grounded in anything more than, as another poster puts it, personal "feels".

As I said, the universe doesn't give a flying fuck about my existence, yours, or anyone else's, and what you or I might "think" or desire, or wish for, or hope for, plays absolutely no part in how the universe is formed or how it functions. What actually matters is what happens in practice. There's nothing "terrible" about reality, and I honestly find it quite bizarre that you wouldn't find life worth living without fanciful notions when reality itself is plenty interesting and wonderous enough, even if it ultimately has explanations which do not involve the supernatural, deities and so on.

It's that thing about needless added complexity. There is no need to go looking for fanciful explanations for things which have perfectly viable mundane ones. The universe remains perfectly functional and fascinating without the supernatural, so there's no need whatsoever to go adding it, and especially in the case of deities and creators all you achieve is to introduce a whole heap of questions that were not present before, and the universe doesn't become any better explained for it.

Show quote history

But you seem to be implying that somehow the world can only be seen through those things. If that is not what you are saying then quantifiable data etc is not the only way you can view the world. Therefore demanding scientific evidence before you’ll believe something is simply a world view, one to which you subscribe.

Or do you believe there are things which cannot be tested in this way? In which case why do you exclude the possibility of the divine?

Just because you have some potential explanations of some of the universe and you consider these more straightforward doesn’t make them the only explanation. It doesn’t exclude other things. You see what you want to see.

Whats the problem with “adding a whole heap of questions”? Are you not curious enough to seek answers?

Oh I think reality itself is very interesting and beautiful when you see it in its entirety so why blind myself by not seeing the whole of existence?

ErrolTheDragon · 13/12/2023 08:17

Ah so you concede that there is an element of human existence that lies beyond that which can be measured, quantified and repeated?

'Concede' makes it sounds as though someone was claiming that there wasn't.
Human subjective experience can't (currently for sure) be 'measured, quantified and repeated'. But obviously there's a difference between each person's perception of reality and actual objective reality. I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of 'qualia'.

But there's no reason to suppose that these many and various subjective experiences are anything other than the results of our physical bodies interacting with a physical world. For instance, a scent may trigger a powerful chemical emotional response and a wave of memory ... but not if you've just had your sense of smell knocked out by Covid.

Kdtym10 · 13/12/2023 08:21

ErrolTheDragon · 13/12/2023 08:17

Ah so you concede that there is an element of human existence that lies beyond that which can be measured, quantified and repeated?

'Concede' makes it sounds as though someone was claiming that there wasn't.
Human subjective experience can't (currently for sure) be 'measured, quantified and repeated'. But obviously there's a difference between each person's perception of reality and actual objective reality. I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of 'qualia'.

But there's no reason to suppose that these many and various subjective experiences are anything other than the results of our physical bodies interacting with a physical world. For instance, a scent may trigger a powerful chemical emotional response and a wave of memory ... but not if you've just had your sense of smell knocked out by Covid.

But there’s no reason to suppose that those things are limited to our physical bodies interacting with a physical world either. Even if that is so why does that happen? Why do we get moved by art? Why can a tune bring us to tears? Why does one person stand for hours staring at a painting transfixed yet another walks by? Does any of that exclude the possibility of the divine?

what is “objective reality” anyway?

ErrolTheDragon · 13/12/2023 08:33

Why do we get moved by art? Why can a tune bring us to tears? Why does one person stand for hours staring at a painting transfixed yet another walks by?

Ah, now those are interesting questions I'm curious about. The scientist can at least hope to find answers to some of these things.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/12/2023 08:54

Whereas, what real answer does the religious mindset typically give to those sorts of questions? Too often, IME, a quick glib one or an unsatisfying 'it's a mystery' cop-out.