Help me to understand my Jewishness

[Mamabear04]

I was wondering if any Jewish people can help me make sense of some information I've found out. Please be kind to me, all my questions come from a place of wanting to understand and all this information is very new to me. It's a bit of a long story but my Grandad left my Mother when she was a young child and they never regained contact. Fast forward many years and I did one of these DNA genetics test and it showed up some Ashkenazi Jewish. I had always heard that my Mothers paternal Grandma was German and after a lot of digging and searching I finally found and long lost cousin who told me a lot of information about my Grandfather and his family. It is all very new to me and it's a part of myself that feels like a stranger to me.

It turns out that my Great Grandma came from an orthodox Jewish family and they emigrated to the UK to escape antisemitism in East Europe. She then married outside of the religion and her parents discommunicated her because she would not leave her husband and because of that hurt, I guess caused her to raise her children Catholic but (I'm assuming) with a knowledge that they were Jewish by blood. So I guess my questions are as follows;

1. Does that make my Grandad Jewish even though he wasn't raised in the Jewish religion and didn't have a Jewish father?

1. To my understanding Jewishness is passed down through the maternal line so my mother and I are not Jewish but someone referred to us as a "seed of Isreal." Does that mean anything more than we have Jewishness running through the paternal line?

1. I don't understand why Jewish law only permits Jewishness to pass down the maternal line and exclude children born to a Jewish father and non Jewish mother - it seems very odd to exclude certain members of the family?

1. My elderly cousin said something about how my Great Grandmother could only see her parents when they were asleep because they discommunicated her. Is this some mad orthodox rule or/and what am I not understanding here?

I really know the bare minimum about Judaism and would appreciate any info about how to think about all this. Like I said it is all very new to me and I'm still processing part of the family I never know but is a part of me if that makes sense? It's like finding a room in your house that you never knew existed.

I'm in a similar boat.

I always thought it came down the female line. I was lucky in so much as I had some second cousins in different countries who were raised fully Jewish, so have had some brief discussions.

In my case, my grandmother was of Polish descent and came to the UK to escape WW2.

I've also got some Jewish friends via my work, and they'll often give me pointers.

I'd recommend you get some books and do some general reading. I've heard great things about the David Baddiel book, which deals with Judaism and also growing up in Britain.

Do you know if you're family were either Ashkenazim Jews (Germanics) or Sephardim (Hispanics)?

I don't know a whole lot about orthodox Jews, beyond they're more devout and typically recognize more of the Torah and its views. Most in the US tend to take more a flexidox path, so they'll potentially do shabbat but in some cases eat pork.

I've found researching my own family to be really interesting and pretty good fun.

I'm Jewish, yes matrilineal descent rules, as you can only know the mother of a child before DNA tests. Makes perfect sense

Your great grandmother's parents sat Shiva for her when she married a non Jew. That's ritual mourning. To them, their child died.

As to 'seed of Israel ' first time I've heard of it, but look. I think this is very nice:
Zera Yisroel

I'm in a similar situation, I consider myself of Jewish heritage, and that's how I would describe it if asked.

Hi. Happy to help answer any questions. A previous poster has explained why matrimonial decent is usually the way to determine who is Jewish. However some reform and liberal synagogue are accepting someone with a Jewish father as being Jewish.

Also never heard of the seed thing. Most people I know would say of X decent.

Any other questions let me know

@Bells3032 @Sorciere1 so I get the matrimonial thing back in the day but surely with modern science that would be enough to determine someone as Jewish even if their father was? Like do people still offer sacrifices and stuff or has that stopped with the current times? Again forgive me for my ignorance, I am asking out of a genuine want to learn and there is so much out there on the Internet it's had to know what is the overarching truth if you get me. And is jewishness an ethnic group or is it a religion or can it be both? Like if a person is born Jewish but does not follow the religion, does that still count as Jewish? Or do they have to practice the religion? And I do somewhat understand the matrimonial laws but then after all the persecution that Jews have gone through, why then would you reject someone from being Jewish and essentially from the family for not being the right kind of Jewish? For instance I have cousins that are Jewish but parents are siblings and their kids are both Jewish and not Jewish (ie Grandfather and Great Aunt).

Can you tell me more about the sitting Shiva thing? Like when my Great Grandmother married a non Jew did she give up her Jewishness? And how about the only seeing her parents when they were sleeping?

Is the Zera Yisreal really a thing in Jewish law or is it just a Wikipedia version of Jewish law?

@WillfredJohn they were orthodox Ashkenazi Jews who came to the UK pre WW1 even. Have you found anything interesting in your research?

The matrilineal thing is several thousand years old. Even DNA tests can be faliable and can be tricked but you can't fake a baby coming out of you I guess. So I don't think it's gonna change in the orthodox community anytime soon but as said some reform communities are keen to accept kids from Jewish dads. And we only don't do sacrifices cos they could only be done in the temple that was sadly destroyer 2000 years ago.

Jewishness is classed as an ethnicity technically speaking. On the same way that aboriginals and native Americans are. You are born Jewish (or convert) and once Jewish you are always Jewish no matter what you believe or follow.

As for Shiva. It literally means 7. It's the 7 days after a person's death (or funeral) where the immediate family are in pure mourning. They don't look on mirrors, shave or go to parties. they sit on low chairs and they aren't supposed to leave the house. everyone brings them food, says prayers with them and comforts them. In the olden days parents would "sit shiva" for a child who "married out" and basically pretend they were dead from then on. They technically were still Jewish as that doesn't go away but you probably wouldn't be accepted well into the community from that day forward. The sleeping thing is just creepy and isn't a "thing" in judaism but I guess if her parents refused to communicate with her that was the only way for her to see them.

As said never seen the seed thing before. Maybe it's something reform Judaism made up to welcome children of mixed faith couples etc?? No idea

@Bells3032 yeah I thought the sleeping thing was creepy too! I just wondered if it was a rule or a way to get around a rule or something?

So in terms of Jewishness being an ethnic group, how does that sit for say my mum and I who are not born Jewish but have Jewish blood?

I feel so sad for my Great Grandmother that she had to go through her parents basically grieving her as dead. I can't even imagine that rejection. Do you think my local synagogue might have more information on my family?

Can you tell me anything else to further my understanding? It all feels so different to me, like a part of me that is a stranger which I guess is true in a lot of ways.

Liberal Jews would say you are Jewish, more Orthodox Jews would say not.

Jews in general believe that if you are Jewish you don't stop being Jewish just because you don't believe in it or stop practicing, and also that you can't just become Jewish by following the laws of Judaism.

You could for example probably be a Jewish Buddhist. I am a Jewish Atheist.

It's not a religion that encourages people to join really, converting to Judaism is deliberately quite difficult. So if you think about it like that, why would they try and recognise more people as Jewish through DNA?

In my family history there are also examples of people being essentially exiled for marrying someone not Jewish, and one case where someone married and had kids and never told his father. Very sad.

No clue about this seed thing.

Many types of Judaism. There is a saying, Two Jews threw opinions, which means that Jews like to debate and disagree.

Somewhere here there is a long AMA thread written by some very orthodox Jewish women which you'd probably find interesting, although their lifestyle and religious practices would be very very different to mine.

I follow an orthodox Jewish lady called Miriam Ezagui on Instagram (she is also on tik tok) and she posts really interesting videos about being an Orthodox Jew - the rules and customs, reasons for them. Worth a follow if you are interested in hearing that perspective

I would say the biggest takeaway is to appreciate that Judaism is a culture and ethnicity. That's why even though we are atheists ( rabbi of my old temple) witches and pagans (me) we are all part of it and considered so. We all were taught similar values etc ...
It's not knowing religious facts rather the shared history of thousands of years + the feeling right now that that Jews are always hated and ( in a more cheerful vein) going to Chinatown for Christmas to eat as it's open.

A bit late to the thread but if your still interested

Does that make my Grandad Jewish even though he wasn't raised in the Jewish religion and didn't have a Jewish father?Sort of. He would have been "legally jewish" but would needed to have be circumsized/bar mitzvah'd

2. To my understanding Jewishness is passed down through the maternal line so my mother and I are not Jewish but someone referred to us as a "seed of Isreal." Does that mean anything more than we have Jewishness running through the paternal line?

its because of a lack of dna testing back in the day (& rumors of rape against jewish women) so it was easier to prove it on a mothers line rather then the fathers

although later professional dna studys showed that the majority like 90% or something of ashkenazi jews actually all descend from 4 specific women all from eastern europe/married to middle eastern men yeeaars ago due to 'intergration' into their mothers country (& just enough variation for the descendants to meet & marry each other) these children simply survived & bred the foundations of whats now the ashkenazis so one of them will likely also be your/your grandfathers ancestor aswell - which would make sense as europe itself has always been a patriacle society so 4 men 'running' their wives/familys how they were raised while the children being cared for day to day by a 'normal' socially acceptable mother makes more sense then a group of women having survived years of persecution & breeding a continual line

it is controversial though as is the whole 'mothers, mothers, mothers' idea (theyres also a video on youtube where israelis were talked to on the street & most accepted a male father makes a child jewish by personal opinion)

3. I don't understand why Jewish law only permits Jewishness to pass down the maternal line and exclude children born to a Jewish father and non Jewish mother - it seems very odd to exclude certain members of the family?

Because a child that comes out of a jewish woman is garunteed to be biologically related a man's paternity can't be 100% sure unless there was no other men around (affairs/rape/prostitution ect)

4. My elderly cousin said something about how my Great Grandmother could only see her parents when they were asleep because they discommunicated her. Is this some mad orthodox rule or/and what am I not understanding here

She just knew where they lived & could literally see them when they were asleep as they wouldn't see her back via the window theres nothing orthodox about it, just longing to be near them

If you look in classics, there's a couple of AMA threads from Jewish Orthodox women. They explained about descent, what classes you as a Jew and how you can become one (and why it's discouraged) and what happens when people marry out. There was a lot about the difference between orthodox and reform, and a lot of sub divisions.

As someone who married a sort-of Jew (his description), I found it fascinating and really well explained.

I would love to know stuff like this as my nan always said she was Russian Jewish

Well I know she wasnt Russian, she was born in south London. But I have never found records for her dad's birth and his parents, I can find him in the census as an adult. So was he from Russia, were they Jewish?

I dont know how I would find this out.

A lot of Ashkenazi Jews left Eastern Europe when it was the Russian Empire, my family did but we were from Lithuania and I say I'm a Lithuanian Jew even though I'm a 3rd gen immigrant. It's common.
What I suggest is you take your father's surname and look it up in a book/online collection of Jewish surnames, this is usually a big clue where they came from. Or join a Jewish genealogy group and ask for help. Surnames and place of immigration will help you + any distant Jewish relatives.

We've found so much about our Jewish family on ancestry. My Great Granny was from East Prussia but going back there are family from Lithuania, Russia and even Sweden. We also found photos which was amazing to see. If you're interested I would recommend looking there first!