Page 2 | Struggling with transition from Christian to agnostic/atheist

SuspiciousLampshade · 2023-10-28T18:14:15+00:00

Hi, hoping others who have given up their Christian faith can give some advice as to how they did it and how to cope with the weird grief/guilt I have about it? Basically have been following some kind of Christianity my whole life but became a “born again” Christian (do they still call it that?) 13 years ago. Married to a Christian DH, his family are all Christian while mine are not really that bothered. Over the past few years I’ve been struggling with different aspects of Christianity - mainly this idea that God is all-powerful and loving yet the world is basically going to pot. It makes me sick thinking about how I used to boast about always getting my prayers of parking spaces answered but people are still suffering and dying despite praying steadfastly… Anyway I’ve quit my church, stopped praying/reading the Bible, and had some uncomfortable conversations with some Christian friends - though most of them don’t know because for some reason I feel guilty about “giving up”? I am also struggling with grieving my loss of community, changed relationship with Christian friends (about 90% of my friends) and of course the change it’s made on my family life, as DH is still very much a believer and though we fortunately agree DC should make their own minds up he still wants them to be brought up in the Christian faith. I’m not against that but obviously I’m not partaking in it which sometimes makes Sundays a little awkward. I also have pangs of panic about “what if I am actually going to hell” and moments of deep sadness because of the comfort I found in believing. But I really do feel like that ship has sailed. Sorry this is long - I guess I’m wondering if anyone else has experiences they’d like to share and if they also had these feelings. Do I just wait for them to pass? How do you re-establish a whole community in your mid 30s? Feeling a little lost. Thanks for reading if you made it to here x

Aozora13 · 29/10/2023 07:37

I have a slightly different perspective as I’ve never had a religion and am a lifelong atheist. I definitely questioned why a god would let so many bad things happen - but reframed it to “how can I contribute to bad things not happening” - obviously it’s only a tiny way but as well as my work, things like activism, community work etc. can help you feel part of something bigger than yourself. Also I take a lot of solace in nature and connecting with the natural world whether it’s through walks in the park, travel, gardening or just watching birds through my window (I have a chronic illness). Music can also create a sense of uplift and belonging whether that’s joining a choir, playing an instrument, going to concerts or just listening loud on your headphones - the church clearly cottoned into this too!

I imagine you feel very untethered after leaving your church and beliefs but there is so much magic and joy and connection to be found in the secular/atheist life also. You can explore new passions or even old ones in a different way and the community will follow if you can put yourself out there.

Namechange4234 · 29/10/2023 07:37

I think its perfectly possible to have a faith without belonging to a religion

That faith can consist of anything that feels good and right to you

No rules needed

babyproblems · 29/10/2023 07:39

There’s another angle of this which i find really quite narcissistic, you say in your post:
because it felt like I was sold this beautiful idea of walking with God and then dying and going to eternity, and now I just don’t know what to base my life and meaning around “

this is going to sound harsh but I find that horrible that people who are religious genuinely think the rest of us aren’t as worthy as them. When you see it like this, it’s abhorrent and you can see why people will kill other people for being something different to them. If someone said they were better than someone else and their life was worth more than someone else’s because say, their house was cleaner and nicer we would say that’s nasty. I cannot see any difference in that than someone saying their life is worthier than someone else’s because they have attended a certain venue each week. I often wonder if people of faith ever consider this?? It’s ironic to me aswell because actually to see life as inequal is surely against most faiths and yet it’s the very thing that keeps them alive!

Donkeyseason · 29/10/2023 07:57

It’s ironic to me aswell because actually to see life as inequal is surely against most faiths and yet it’s the very thing that keeps them alive!

when I read statements like this I realise how so many people have reframed religion as some sort of progressive left belief system. It isn’t. Inequality is deeply embedded in most religions. Inequality for women, for unbelievers, inequality according to caste, inequality for slaves. The list goes on! These religions were all written at a time when there was no real theory or understanding of human rights, including for women. And obviously no bodily autonomy for women, men were clearly not going to create a religion that said women could refuse them sex!

The religions were written at a time of deep institutionalized social inequality and their texts and beliefs reflect this.

Biasquia · 29/10/2023 08:00

babyproblems · 29/10/2023 07:39

There’s another angle of this which i find really quite narcissistic, you say in your post:
because it felt like I was sold this beautiful idea of walking with God and then dying and going to eternity, and now I just don’t know what to base my life and meaning around “

this is going to sound harsh but I find that horrible that people who are religious genuinely think the rest of us aren’t as worthy as them. When you see it like this, it’s abhorrent and you can see why people will kill other people for being something different to them. If someone said they were better than someone else and their life was worth more than someone else’s because say, their house was cleaner and nicer we would say that’s nasty. I cannot see any difference in that than someone saying their life is worthier than someone else’s because they have attended a certain venue each week. I often wonder if people of faith ever consider this?? It’s ironic to me aswell because actually to see life as inequal is surely against most faiths and yet it’s the very thing that keeps them alive!

After 2 decades of mass attendance and attendance at Catholic schools where religion was taught to the same level as Maths I can safely say that with absolute certainty the Catholic Church preaches that catholics are the superior people, only they are granted entry into heaven as members of the one true church.

Even reading some posts in this forum you can see the superiority shining through from some posters who speak down to others as they believe they have reached a level of enlightenment that justifies that. So certain are they that they are right because their belief system tells them that. Ironically the church might be different but the belief in being absolutely right doesn’t change.

Donkeyseason · 29/10/2023 08:08

Ironically the church might be different but the belief in being absolutely right doesn’t change

To be fair, many atheists also have an absolute belief they are right and look down on people of faith as thick and deluded. I’ve spent considerable time in both atheist communities and Christian communities and found the atheist communities far more arrogant in their certainty and really sneering about anyone with supernatural beliefs. I found the Christian’s I knew far more comfortable in acknowledging doubt.

H34th · 29/10/2023 08:32

Hi Op,

Try to be at peace with the way you feel right now. Try not to force anything new/ shut down persistent fears.

Things that you can gradually give a go, which personally inspire me and help me make sense of the world -

Watch Earth/ space documentaries - many Brian Cox ones should be still on iPlayer

Read non fiction popular books like Sapiens, The God Delusion; books on Buddhism, other religions, especially less known over here, polytheistic religions. Read books on biochemistry.

Go over to the Humanists website, see if they have any events locally, any groups you can join.

Keep talking to people, incl here on Mumsnet.

H34th · 29/10/2023 08:48

To be fair, many atheists also have an absolute belief they are right and look down on people of faith as thick and deluded. I’ve spent considerable time in both atheist communities and Christian communities and found the atheist communities far more arrogant in their certainty and really sneering about anyone with supernatural beliefs. I found the Christian’s I knew far more comfortable in acknowledging doubt.

Atheists/ agnostics believe in what is proven. If it's disproved in favour of something new they are on board with that. They are, by nature, very comfortable with doubt.

Some may have less patience with the religious, because of the horrible things humans still do to each in the name of their deity.

Biasquia · 29/10/2023 08:57

Again from my experience of a Catholic upbringing doubt was waved away with faith. To have faith was to override your doubt.

Swanny8 · 29/10/2023 08:59

Snowdayplease · 28/10/2023 20:30

Prayer is not about getting parking spaces!
the problem of evil has been debated for a long time. Maybe you'd find it helpful in cementing your views to read around this? But it seems an odd thing for your faith to have rested on (that your personal wishes were granted).

She didn't say that her faith rested on parking spaces.

Toomucho · 29/10/2023 09:24

I'd recommend your local humanist group too as some of them will have had similar experiences to you and likely similar interest in terms of exploring what a good life without god/religion can be like.
Humanists UK also have a faith to faithless group but I'm not sure what that is like.

Original poster

SuspiciousLampshade · 29/10/2023 09:41

Donkeyseason · 29/10/2023 06:34

I had to rebuild my entire life, friendships, job, interests, self in my 40s. It’s very hard but can be done. I’m six years in and still working at it.

I think replacing the community of church would be very hard. That weekly meet up really helps to build solid friendships. As well as the base of shared beliefs. I haven’t found anything close to that.

How is your marriage coping?

Thanks for asking - it’s doing okay. Rocky for other reasons so this obviously doesn’t help, but it seems DH is thinking this is just me getting tested in my faith and I’ll come back to it eventually. We’ve never been the kind of couple who pray together etc so it’s not been a hot topic with everything else we have going on.

I think I will really miss the community we have built, which is built on this common understanding and belief we have - as pp have said I can just keep going to church but it feels very fake and almost manipulative if that makes sense. Especially when we talk about Christian themes and I have to think about what I would have said before, then alter it so I’m not just lying to their faces and it’s somewhat my thinking now, and simultaneously I’m trying to hide the fact I don’t believe in what we’re talking about any more. Seems much easier to just come clean - many of my Christian friends have said they still value my friendship regardless but it kind of feels like there’s a piece missing now, if that makes sense. (This last bit wasn’t really in response to this quoted post but to pp who’ve suggested similar!)

OP posts:

Original poster

SuspiciousLampshade · 29/10/2023 09:47

BeyondMyWits · 29/10/2023 07:11

I was raised as a staunch Catholic, by very strong believers.

Who then got divorced. My dad was having affairs.

Then we had the church (priest) condemn my mother. Nasty. And my mother held out every single day to her death that she was still married in the eyes of the church so when she died she'd be joining my father in heaven. How is that going to work? My baby sister had died unchristened and was going to float about in limbo for all eternity, until the church changed their mind on that. Nice of them.

I just felt there were too many stupid rules (I was 12)... and then Jane Asher (of all people) said in a newspaper interview " It is OK to not believe", and a switch went in my head... of course it is. And a heavy weight lifted, no guilt, no fear.

This is terrible. I’m so sorry about the way you were all treated. Sadly I’ve also seen versions of this (from Catholic Churches and more evangelical ones).

One of our families in a church I attended lost their young daughter to cancer. Other members of the church were telling them it was their fault because of “generational sin” or because they weren’t doing enough now. I should have left then and there really. The leadership came down really hard on this line of thinking thankfully but it’s still shocking.

I know many say the church isn’t the same as God and people are broken but it really makes you wonder how people can believe this kind of stuff (and say it out loud to suffering people)

OP posts:

Original poster

SuspiciousLampshade · 29/10/2023 09:56

babyproblems · 29/10/2023 07:29

Honestly I would stop trying to categorise everything and just ‘be’ and do what you feel is right in each moment. If you wanted to address feeling guilty etc you could look more into the science of the modern world as that might reassure you on heaven/hell etc. I definitely get the impression from your post that you still ‘believe’ - you aren’t saying what a load of rubbish it is, you’re saying you feel guilty for the suffering in the world. Many people who aren’t religious at all also feel that way. I feel guilty that we are warm, safe and fed and that there are people in war zones like Gaza who have lost everything and life is about survival. I don’t see that as anything to do with god because both of those scenarios have been created by a series of decisions made by people. For me I recognise that life is unfair and unequal, and I reconcile that within myself by appreciating the things we have in life and doing good where possible for others. It seems to me you feel that also, but there’s a whole religious element to it aswell which makes it very complicated and actually maybe prevents you from seeing the people who have made choices leading to these situations for what they really are. Xx

You’re absolutely right, this is exactly what I’m struggling with - it feels terrifying to even say I don’t believe because it’s blowing apart my entire belief system, admitting that everything has changed, and feels a bit like a one way street that I can’t go back on afterwards. So I’m kind of in the in between at the moment where I really want to believe but I just can’t any more.

Also a note on the suffering - of course I feel guilty about the suffering going on in the world, but that’s not quite what I meant, I probably didn’t phrase it correctly. The guilt I was referring to in my post is this guilt I have about admitting to my Christian friends that I’ve turned my back on God and I’ve “failed” at being a Christian somehow. This sounds ridiculous and it is, but I have major people pleasing tendencies and part of the reason I’ve held on so long has been because I’ve been going to church and acting like I’m still Christian and have been too scared to actually question it. Hope that makes sense.

OP posts:

Original poster

SuspiciousLampshade · 29/10/2023 09:58

ChocolatePeanutButterPie · 29/10/2023 07:34

This is a common experience when leaving a religion that was so intense it was a way of life and a huge part of identity but it does get easier.

Just brainstorming ideas: you can still be spiritual without a religious or a deity, checkout humanist society, exchristian meet up groups, i think there are agnostic Quakers and they meet up, online or in person talks and meetings for atheists and agnostics, you could try redefining your identity and connecting with communities based on other aspects of yourself such as hobbies, being a parent, language, culture, dog walkers,cat lovers... you get the gist. Religion is like a cult as far as im concerned and they do exclude you when you leave as an example to others and punishment. Nasty stuff.

The most important thing for me is to accept I don't have all the answers but I know with enough certainty that I don't believe in religions. When you are in faith they brainwash you to speak with such certainty, blind faith confidence serene in the fact that you are right. It's pretty smug and delusional actually.

Thank you! This was actually really helpful. I do feel like I’m trying to figure out who I am and what my hobbies are now my life doesn’t revolve around church services and house groups etc…

OP posts:

Original poster

SuspiciousLampshade · 29/10/2023 10:03

babyproblems · 29/10/2023 07:39

There’s another angle of this which i find really quite narcissistic, you say in your post:
because it felt like I was sold this beautiful idea of walking with God and then dying and going to eternity, and now I just don’t know what to base my life and meaning around “

this is going to sound harsh but I find that horrible that people who are religious genuinely think the rest of us aren’t as worthy as them. When you see it like this, it’s abhorrent and you can see why people will kill other people for being something different to them. If someone said they were better than someone else and their life was worth more than someone else’s because say, their house was cleaner and nicer we would say that’s nasty. I cannot see any difference in that than someone saying their life is worthier than someone else’s because they have attended a certain venue each week. I often wonder if people of faith ever consider this?? It’s ironic to me aswell because actually to see life as inequal is surely against most faiths and yet it’s the very thing that keeps them alive!

Didn’t spot this when I responded to your other comment, sorry - I can see what you mean about it being narcissistic, but I meant this less in terms of thinking I was above others before and now I’m not and more that Christianity is what a major part of my identity is based on, believing the “truths” in it and living according to its principles. Kind of like others build their identities on other religions, on being a parent, on their career etc. So when that foundation suddenly vanishes it feels a bit like you’re in free fall and you have no idea who you are any more or why you are alive. Sounds overdramatic I know but it’s kind of like leaving a cult, you’ve been so immersed in it that you just don’t know how to live without it. So that’s what I’m trying to figure out x

OP posts:

Original poster

SuspiciousLampshade · 29/10/2023 10:06

H34th · 29/10/2023 08:32

Hi Op,

Try to be at peace with the way you feel right now. Try not to force anything new/ shut down persistent fears.

Things that you can gradually give a go, which personally inspire me and help me make sense of the world -

Watch Earth/ space documentaries - many Brian Cox ones should be still on iPlayer

Read non fiction popular books like Sapiens, The God Delusion; books on Buddhism, other religions, especially less known over here, polytheistic religions. Read books on biochemistry.

Go over to the Humanists website, see if they have any events locally, any groups you can join.

Keep talking to people, incl here on Mumsnet.

Thank you! This is a good list.

I actually read The God Delusion quite shortly after becoming a “proper believing” Christian, it was on our reading list for one of my uni courses (did some Chemistry in there too including the history of evolution and how the current world came to be from a chemical standpoint- was fascinating and I’d love to do it again now with my “faithless eyes”). The way Richard Dawkins writes and is so condescending really turned me off. But perhaps I should try it again, it’s still on my bookshelf…

OP posts:

Donkeyseason · 29/10/2023 10:06

SuspiciousLampshade · 29/10/2023 09:41

Thanks for asking - it’s doing okay. Rocky for other reasons so this obviously doesn’t help, but it seems DH is thinking this is just me getting tested in my faith and I’ll come back to it eventually. We’ve never been the kind of couple who pray together etc so it’s not been a hot topic with everything else we have going on.

I think I will really miss the community we have built, which is built on this common understanding and belief we have - as pp have said I can just keep going to church but it feels very fake and almost manipulative if that makes sense. Especially when we talk about Christian themes and I have to think about what I would have said before, then alter it so I’m not just lying to their faces and it’s somewhat my thinking now, and simultaneously I’m trying to hide the fact I don’t believe in what we’re talking about any more. Seems much easier to just come clean - many of my Christian friends have said they still value my friendship regardless but it kind of feels like there’s a piece missing now, if that makes sense. (This last bit wasn’t really in response to this quoted post but to pp who’ve suggested similar!)

Show quote history

I understand this. I went to church for a while, but stopped as I realised I just didn’t believe, and had the same issues you did with belief. I would have loved to have believed and stayed in the church, but it did just feel like I would be faking and lying to be there. Like trying to make friends by joining a football team even though you hate footie! Not a good strategy when everyone else is there because they share a passion you don’t!

Donkeyseason · 29/10/2023 10:10

H34th · 29/10/2023 08:48

To be fair, many atheists also have an absolute belief they are right and look down on people of faith as thick and deluded. I’ve spent considerable time in both atheist communities and Christian communities and found the atheist communities far more arrogant in their certainty and really sneering about anyone with supernatural beliefs. I found the Christian’s I knew far more comfortable in acknowledging doubt.

Atheists/ agnostics believe in what is proven. If it's disproved in favour of something new they are on board with that. They are, by nature, very comfortable with doubt.

Some may have less patience with the religious, because of the horrible things humans still do to each in the name of their deity.

Sorry, I was talking to my experience and that is just not my experience. The atheists I have known do not look down on religious belief for the reason you gave but because they think they are thick to believe. They demand proof but faith is about, by definition, faith. That is, faith in something that cannot be proved. It’s just a different way of looking at the world.

Scientists don’t really deal in proof, btw. They deal in theories that either get stronger through accumulating evidence or weaker and eventually dismissed through countering evidence.

Parker231 · 29/10/2023 10:12

SuspiciousLampshade · 29/10/2023 09:41

Thanks for asking - it’s doing okay. Rocky for other reasons so this obviously doesn’t help, but it seems DH is thinking this is just me getting tested in my faith and I’ll come back to it eventually. We’ve never been the kind of couple who pray together etc so it’s not been a hot topic with everything else we have going on.

I think I will really miss the community we have built, which is built on this common understanding and belief we have - as pp have said I can just keep going to church but it feels very fake and almost manipulative if that makes sense. Especially when we talk about Christian themes and I have to think about what I would have said before, then alter it so I’m not just lying to their faces and it’s somewhat my thinking now, and simultaneously I’m trying to hide the fact I don’t believe in what we’re talking about any more. Seems much easier to just come clean - many of my Christian friends have said they still value my friendship regardless but it kind of feels like there’s a piece missing now, if that makes sense. (This last bit wasn’t really in response to this quoted post but to pp who’ve suggested similar!)

Show quote history

If your Christian friends don’t continue with your friendship if you leave the church, they aren’t worth having as friends.

Snowdayplease · 29/10/2023 10:19

I think if I'd attended your church OP I'd have stopped believing too - I don't recognise a Christianity that blames people when someone dies of cancer or thinks God intervenes to get you specific things you want.
Ive seen this in American churches I think there's a name for it but I forget - the idea that if you're rich, well it's because you deserve it! So those without must have done something to deserve that too.
In your shoes I would reject the church not the faith, but I think maybe you're past that point now.

pointythings · 29/10/2023 10:35

I've never been a believer and I was raised completely secular despite my mother having faith. I think part of the problem if you're coming out of intense faith is a sense that you're really alone now. It's enormous freedom, but it comes with enormous responsibility. You have to find your own moral compass and navigate life by it, and if you're used to having the guidance of a faith, I imagine that is pretty difficult. As an atheist I question myself, reflect on my beliefs and my decisions, and for me personally that is a journey of growth and liberation, but I can see that if you're coming from a faith position that could be painful.

I would recommend doing some mindfulness work, not for the sake of filling the spiritual hole but because it will teach you not to beat yourself up with guilt. The part about 'sitting with difficult feelings' can be really useful in many ways.

You should also explore other forms of spirituality and see if there is something that calls to you. For me that hasn't happened and I am at peace with that, but we are all different. Secular paganism is a good start; I see a certain appeal in a faith whose first tenet is 'do no harm'.

I wish you well on your journey, and the same for all those who are on the same path.

Jason118 · 29/10/2023 10:37

Be the 'you' you want to be, not the one others want or expect. Rowing back from any indoctrination is difficult. Give yourself time and space to be yourself. Good luck.

H34th · 29/10/2023 18:11

@SuspiciousLampshade Interesting! I haven't actually read 'The God Delusion' but watched the author do interviews and he was very good with difficult questions re meaning of life etc, imo.
I have read Sapiens though and really recommend. It's not anti- religion or anti- faith, at all. Just a good history book, putting everything into perspective, written in a very engaging way.

Someone mentioned mindfulness. I'd also recommend meditation, if you haven't tried that. Similar to prayer, I suppose, in that you are focused on one thing. I love gratitude and loving kindness meditations. Many good apps for beginners with free trials.

Catinabeanbag · 29/10/2023 18:27

I was brought up in a charismatic evangelical church. Properly involved - teaching sunday school, playing in the worship band... and same when I went to uni at another similar church. Then I moved cities in my late 20s (around the same time as I came out), and found it hard to find a church I felt happy at (and which wouldn't tell me I was a dreadful sinner for being gay).
15 years ago I was at a service and just thought 'I don't believe this any more'. Reading the creed was like reading a recipe - it was that detatched. And I stopped going to church. I wasn't struck by lightning, and I didn't feel guilty.
Fast forward a few years, when I'd decided that a lot of the church teaching I grew up with I didn't actually agree with, I started looking at other sorts of spirituality. I looked into paganism, goddess theology and the divine feminine, celtic theology and monastism.

Four years ago I started going back to church - a 'traditional' CofE church - and for me, it's been great. Now, I go because I want to, not because I feel like I ought to, or because there's any guilt if I don't go, or because 'it's expected'.
I think those years away were necessary (for me), to re-evaluate what I'd been brought up with; to decide if I really DID believe it (or not), and which bits of it.
There's stuff I'm still figuring out, and I don't have all the answers by any means, but I feel like I"m in the right place at the moment.

I'd say sit with whatever feelings you have at the moment, and with where you are at the moment, and don't stress about it too much. I'd maybe be wary of throwing the baby out with the bathwater and saying 'never again', but that might be where you end up, and that's ok. It might be that you end up at a different church, or find a group online or someone to chat all this through with; you'll know what you need. Perhaps it will be about redefining your relationship with God in some way... I don't know.

That loss of friendships, relationships and community is massive, and not to be underestimated, especially when it's something you've been involved in your whole life. There may well be some grief about that, or anger, or sadness, and that's all ok. It does take time though, and often it's about being ok with where you are in the present and not beating yourself up about things.