would you change church?

[beansmum]

The church I go to takes the bible pretty literally and I have problems with some of the ideas preached. I have been finding it a bit tricky recently at housegroup when everyone seems to agree except me on things like women ministers, homosexuality, sexual activity (of any kind including snogging) before marriage. But I love the people, have made great friends and have a really good support network.

What, if anything, would you do?

Would you actually lose all your friends? If you said you were happier with a different church, and they stopped seeing you...I think I'd questin how good friends they were.
Plus you'd probably make really good new friends in the new church as well and having a child always really helps as they make friends for you iyswim! I'd say it was worth finding a church with a good childrens club/sunday school during the service. What denomination do you want? CofE, something else, not sure? Have you tried the parish (CofE)church (normally a bit 'broader' than the independent evangelical churches since by definition a wide range of people are affiliated to the Church of England)?

Try looking at the Ship of fools website and see if they have any 'mystery worshipper' reviews of churches in your area!

Btw, in answer to the OP, yes I would. I'm increasingly very uncomfortable with the way some churches/'The Church' is going with the anti-feminist backlash and the increasing anger and power battles over homosexuality. I am a Christian and take the Bible extremely seriously, but I also have a good brain, am a trained historian and theologian, and cannot take it all 'literally' (that is to say, I take it too seriously to think that it is all meant as simplistically as a list of instructions - it includes a wide variety of literature written in a wide variety of contexts). Also, my belief that God in Christ has removed all barriers between men/women, poor/rich, etc, and that love is the ultimate rule, which is a biblical belief, is the reason I don't believe all the conservative package. It's not as simple as saying 'if you believe the bible you'll believe x, y and z', so don't let people tell you it is!

I have housegroup tomorrow, maybe I'll try and bring it up somehow. I know my housegroup leader will not understand, she will just pray for me.

I think I would lose a lot of my friends. I'm very involved in the church, run a mums and toddlers group 2 days a week, do childcare for daytime alpha courses, creche etc and would kind of lose touch with all the people I meet through that. But I'm feeling more and more certain that I have to do something.

This is so stressful, it feels like I'm planning on moving house!

Maybe bring it up with someone in private first? I would have thought a housegroup would be quite public, especially if you think the leader would be 'anti'

Seriously, I do agree with beeper, but you have to make the choice you feel is right to make. I'm a convinced bible literalist, fwiw, but if someone isn't, and has made up their mind about that, there's precious little point arguing about it, from experience.

But I would agree that you need to speak to someone privately about your concerns, really. I wouldn't have thought it will be anything so dramatic as 'losing all your friends', but if you're not going to be as involved with church activities, that's inevitably going to mean things are less close, I would have thought. But if you find somewhere that you're happy to attend, those things can be built up there.

These things take time, where-ever you go.

I'm sorry that it is causing you so much unhappiness to think about this. It's really tricky when your whole life is bound up in your church. You'll need to weigh up how much of a wrench it will be to leave that particular church, when it has been so central to your life, against the unhappiness the theological differences are causing you.

I know that I would not be able to stay somewhere if I coud not be true to what I believe, but that doesn't mean leaving is automatically the right decision for you. I'd say the same as I have to someone on a relationship thread - can you see yourself in 5 years time if you carry on as you are? Would you be happy for that to be the case? If not, then you have to think what you can do to change the situation.

Just wanted to say thanks for all your help everyone. I'm still not absolutely certain what I am going to do but am feeling slightly happier about my options. I'll try the other local church next week and have a think. I will also try and work up the courage to talk to some of my friends about it too. Maybe in a church of 400 there is someone else who feels like me and has found some way of dealing with it.

That's why I left the C of E as there was too much dogma. I now go to a spiritualist church but have my personal view of religion as should we all in my opinion.

Well, I was all geared up to talk to someone at housegroup tonight but my babysitter hasn't turned up. To be honest I didn't really want to go.

Seems to me that you are 'led' to think very carefully about leaving a church that has given you so much. I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't leave, just that you need to think about what you are doing and why.
Looking through the thread I thought of something someone had sent me ages ago called Levitical questions. A great antidote for anybody wanting to take the Bible too seriously. But I can't find it again.
The question about women in leadership has also been extensively addressed in most churches and again most churches have come to a way of dealing with it.
In a big church there is most likely a number of people who have the same kind of problem as you have.
I certainly don't think you should leave before you have spoken to your minister/housegroup leader.
Don't forget: you take yourself anywhere and there is no such thing as the perfect church.

Actually Mary remembered it had been posted on MN previously here is the link.

how you doing beansmum?

they think you are "wrong and not a real Christian" if you don't believe what they believe - this is the part I have a problem with, this is how cults, hard heartedness, ignorance and prejudice is perpetuated.

God is in your heart and he has decided you are one of his - it is not for them to judge whether you are a Christian or not.

I do not agree with what they believe but I would not reject them as people for it, nor would I call into question whether they are Christian or not and I would not call them wrong for their beliefs.

I hope (and pray) God gives you the strength to stay and influence them to become more loving/tolerant of others or that he finds you a church more suitable for your beliefs.

sending you blessings

I'm staying. I have thought and prayed a LOT about it. Although I am unhappy with some important issues there are loads and loads of good things about the church and the people. I will stay as long as I can carry on being honest about my beliefs and as long as I'm happy with the things ds is being taught. I feel a bit of a fraud though. I don't think I am always as honest about my feelings as I should be and I probably have friends who think I agree with them on everything. At least that's something I can change.

It certainly sounds as if you have thought and prayed through it all, and maybe the whole process has been a useful experience for you, uncomfortable though it was. You may even find if you're more open about the things you have an issue with, there may be others in the church who agree with you, who have equally just been keeping their heads down.

All the best!

You might find this book a helpful read:
www.amazon.co.uk/Post-evangelical-Dave-Tomlinson/dp/0281048142

If you're anything like me, it will reassure you that there are plenty of Christians from an evangelical (i.e. "Bible-believing") background that have doubts about whether the traditional, literal view of parts of the Bible still hold water. And it affirms that they are still "proper Christians", and sets out some pretty coherent reasons why!

If you are staying, it might help you think through your views, so that you can discuss them with a bit more confidence.

I have a strongly evangelical background, but find myself in a Methodist church now, where there is much greater tolerance of a variety of views. But we all love and follow Jesus. Even if some of our more literal brothers and sisters have doubts about some of us

I think to have to feel like "a fraud" by making out that you believe what you do not believe in order to be accepted by people you value is not good for you spiritually in the long-term. I would look for another church in your shoes, you never know where these journeys take you. Perhaps you will be led back where you started from after a while, I don't know. However this does not sound like the right spiritual place for you at this time, however pleasant the social aspects are.

I agree that feeling like a fraud is not good. But I am determined to start being more outspoken when I hear something I don't agree with. If I can't do that I will have to leave.

I think that sounds like a good next step - they'll either respect your right to a different opinion, have a sensible discussion about the issue, ignore you because they can't cope with the idea, or make it clear that they think you're terrible for thinking such things. Whatever starts happening, you'll be being true to your own beliefs, and finding out whether they will accept that.

Good on you!

I think that's wise, beansmum. Be yourself - those friendships will hold up, if they're based on the common ground you do have, and you're honest. I have a few close friendships with Christians of a very much more liberal stripe than I, and though we don't agree on everything, we can stand together on what we do. But the key is both of us being honest and not pretending.

Maybe have a few Sundays "off" where you quietly visit some other local churches. Just so that you have done some groundwork about what else is available locally, if you do feel you have to go. And be reassured that there are churches where views are more liberal and the Holy Spirit is still alive and active!

I also have some difficulty with the view that everything in the Bible must be taken literally.

I'm a member of a mainstream Christian church but the minister recently preached a series of sermons based on readings from Corinthians. After the one where he got to that part that refers to wives having to submit to their husbands, I got into a good natured discussion with a fellow worshipper who had helped lead the Alpha course I attended last year. I pointed to the part of the passage after that day's reading in which "slaves" are instructed to obey their masters who are, in turn, expected to treat their slaves well. He explained to me that, in a modern context, that might be taken as referring to employees and employers. My question - to which I got the sort of smile in response that might have meant "well, this is too complicated to go into right now" - was simply if we can interpret some passages for a modern context, why not all?

The same goes for all sorts of other passages including women not speaking in church - we have female clergy and elders; women covering their heads - I don't think any woman in our church does this, not even those who would support the literal truth of the Bible.

I've asked the question a number of times but never got a truly satisfactory answer. Thankfully, I belong to a church that appears to be proud of its tradition of "liberty of opinion" and so this does not pose any major difficulty.

I know what you mean. It seems it's ok to interpret most things by looking at the modern context but we have to get our knickers in a twist about other things.

I believe that we need to look at the broader picture and apply this to our moral and theological questions. Jesus preached love and tolerance for everyone in society and put more emphasis on the quality of relationships than on any restrictions or laws.

Where there are contradictions or difficulties relating parts of the Bible to our modern society we need to look at the overall narrative of the Bible and apply this to our lives.

Good luck with your deliberations beansmum.
Like Hermione, I would not feel comfortable in a worship setting with views you describe your church as upholding, so I'd move if I didn't think I could be honest without being ostracised.
But I think speaking up the next time a contentious issue is discussed is an important thing to do before you make your final decision.
This quote from Hermione says it all for me really: "God in Christ has removed all barriers between men/women, poor/rich, etc, and that love is the ultimate rule, which is a biblical belief, is the reason I don't believe all the conservative package".
If your friends at your church love you as you hope, they will accept your differing views.

Beansmum, I think you sound like you're in a tough situation! If you are going to stay (which you sould like you've made up your mind for now) I would say read up a bit on the debates around the issues, or talk to other people about your ideas and concerns.

It is never straightforward interpreting the bible. And I am concerned when anyone says they take it literally. Unless they are fluent in ancient Greek (NT) and Hebrew (OT) and are familiar with all the textual debates around which scrolls and papyri have contributed to what we now consider the canon there are layers and layers of choices, translation and interpretation, (before you even get to what the preacher is saying about it!) which influence our understanding. So, personally, I would say it's a good thing to hold our beliefs but keep an open heart as well.

So, for example, in the debate about women in leadership, few fundamentalists are aware of the women who feature as church leaders in the NT or early church. So, for example, Junia of Rms 16:7 is listed as an apostle, the highest rank of leadership in the early church. The name Junia (woman's) was mis-translated as a male name for a number of years, even though Junias as a male name doesn't exist in any recorded literature of the time. And so her ministry is marginalized in church teaching now.

I hope that you can find your way and also find a few people in the church to think about these things with you, so the journey isn't too lonely . Let us know how you're getting on! And people at your church might not think like you but lots of Christians accept women in leadership and have less-harsh views on sexuality and sexual activity outside marriage.

Thinking of you