would you change church?

[beansmum]

The church I go to takes the bible pretty literally and I have problems with some of the ideas preached. I have been finding it a bit tricky recently at housegroup when everyone seems to agree except me on things like women ministers, homosexuality, sexual activity (of any kind including snogging) before marriage. But I love the people, have made great friends and have a really good support network.

What, if anything, would you do?

doing that! But maybe God will pass on the message through MN

Do you feel able to be honest with them about your views? And do they accept and respect your right to hold different views? Sometimes it's fine not to be the same, but if they are not accepting of you and you feel you have to "toe the party line" on things you disagree about, I'd say it would be hard to remain there long term.

I do find it hard to be honest because in their opinion I am just plain wrong and not a real Christian if I don't agree. So I usually just keep quiet unless someone actually asks for my opinion. I'm also worried about ds growing up in this church and not being able to decide for himself about certain things. But then I think about all the friends I would probably lose if I moved and the practical problems of travelling to a suitable church on the bus instead of walking for 2 mins.

I'm not sure who I can speak to about this

You have to be faithful to what you genuinely believe the scripture teaches. Simple as that. If you don't believe it teaches what the church teaches, then that's going to cause conflict eventually.

And bottom-line, you have decide what is a fundamental issue, and what is negotiable. Like, we wouldn't be happy with any sexual activity before marriage (and yeah, given that snogging is a mighty effective prelude to the main act, that would include snogging). But if someone else thought snoggin was ok, as an example, that would be one seriously inane thing for us to fall out over, iyswim.

But there are things which are pretty major worldview things - like the inspiration of the bible, what the gospel is, and so on, which can cause serious conflict.

Essentially, it boils down to what is going to actually cause a problem for you. Plenty of people hold to views you will disagree with, and you can manage to rub along fairly well with them. But if it becomes something personally relevant to your life, things get trickier.

I wouldn't change church myself, but you don't want to listen to me at the moment, I'm a dreadful example.

OK, next question. IF I decide to change, how do I find a church I like, a lot of the things that are bothering me at the moment have only become apparent after 2 yrs in the church.

Research, my dear, research! Have a mooch on t'interweb and see what local church websites come up. Look for 'statement of faith' or 'vision' or 'core values' some thing like that.

You should get a fairly good idea of their broad views from that sort of investigation. Following on from that, when you've found some churches that you are happy with the beliefs, visit them and see what 'fits'. Of course, church can change their views over time, but that should give you a decent headstart to finding a church that doesn't rub you completely up the wrong way.

You may well be a lot clearer now about what you do (and don't) believe, so will be much more able to work out whether a church fits in with that. You don't say in the OP whether this is the first church/denomination you had been closely involved with - if it was, then it's not surprising it took 2 years for your ideas to settle out and the issues appear.

I changed church- I was brought up C of E, but converted to the Orthodox Church about 12 years ago and never looked back. I have a sense of the 'living God' within the Orthodox church, something that I never experienced in the C of E.

When you follow the Bible you dont decide your own ideas on what it says, you submit to the will of God in these areas.

following the 'narrow way' means exactly that.

You have to stick to what the Bible says about all those subjects you listed, if you wish to be faithful to it, if you decide to make up your own mind on issues then you are creating God and his doctrines in your own image.

Real unity is in spirit and in TRUTH. There are some areas that you can agree to disagree with but there are major areas that you cannot be in unity with people in. The main area is 'sin'. If they say something that the Bible says is 'sin' is not sin, regardless of what the PC bridgade say is not sin, then you have a major problem.

These areas being mainly around sexual immorality, and personal conduct with regards to lying, stealing etc etc

I know a lot of Christians would think I am someone who has backslidden, or doesn't have enough faith or just doesn't want to have to stop doing things I like doing but that is just not true. My faith does rely on the Bible and I do believe it was inspired by God but I also realise that it was written by men and that makes it an imperfect authority in a lot of ways.

I do stick to what the Bible says but I perhaps view scripture more critically than some in my church and don't just accept that everything printed in it should be taken literally or that every instruction should be followed to the letter without questioning.

Beansmum, I would not judge you as backslidden because I don't do that sort of thing.

It seems from what you are saying that your main areas of contention are those to do with women in the Bible, as per leadership and teaching etc.

I too for a long time had a problem with all male leadership and areas of that nature. What I failed to realise was that rather than have a problem with what the Bible says I actually had a problem with men in general, as I had an abusive father and this coloured my relationship with God. I saw the writings of Paul on women as very negative. However after much study and that God has changed my heart in the process I see the beauty of the role that God has called women to, and the very,very serious role that men are called to, they have much more to answer for than we do.

My main problem with the whole man/woman thing is that I felt my whole life that to be a stay at home mum and not to be earning big bucks and all that goes with it meant that I was a failure. Now I see past the need to feel undervalued and feel valued by God for my role as a wife, mother and child of God. Also alot of negative feelings came from the idea that I wanted to be something 'big' for God, for people to see me doing big things and getting noticed. I soon saw that this was indeed seeking my own glory and not Gods. Now I see glory and achievement in the role that I have been given. I aslo now breathe a sigh of relief that I am not some big shot person that I wanted to be.

I am not putting any of this on you, I am expressing my own journey. Ask God to show you the truth and give you the grace to accept that truth when it is revealed.

Also remember that Jesus is the Logos, the word made flesh, Yes men where used as human instruments to write the Bible but it is God breathed and holy.

Blessings

If you were to ask me, do I believe everything that is in the bible, then I would have to say no. How could I train for ministry if I believed I should be silent in church?

I still don't know why God called me to ministry, I didn't want to be a minister HE knows that! For some reason he has given me gifts I never had before. I'm still frightened half to death when I am due to speak to His people, but "because of what He has done for me I would do anything for him". That is what keeps me going. The fear goes when I stand up there, and I feel the Holy Spirit strengthening me. Lord I believe, help my unbelief.

Finding it difficult to string a coherent sentence together here!

I think I do believe everything in the Bible in a way. I don't believe it is all historical fact, some is meant to be read as such but other sections are perhaps meant to be read as stories to make theological points but not neccessarily in a literal way (making any sense here?). And some bits I am just certain are not the word of the Lord even if the author had a really good reason for puttting them in.

My main problem at the moment is that we are being taught in my church to accept the Bible as an absolute authority and some things just feel wrong to me.

Beansmum - there are a lot of different denominations, and variation within those denominations, and a lot of them view the Bible in very much the way you are describing. I would say that I believe in what the Bible says, but that does not necessarily mean taking every part of it as completely literal. For instance, some of the parts which are clearly against homosexuality are next to other parts which are totally opposed to different fibres being woven together (eg polyester & cotton shirts). I don't want to get into an argument with those on here who take a very literal view, but please be assured that there are lots of good Christians who take a different view from those in your current church.

I was made to feel for a while that I couldn't possibly be a Christian because I did not believe exactly the same as certain individuals. Those people were wrong.

That's how I feel, that I'm not a real Christian if I don't agree with everything the other people around me believe. But I feel that I have to question some beliefs. Not necessarily to dismiss them or make up my own version of the truth, just to make sure that I understand completely what it is God is saying to me and to make sure I am happy with my actions.

This is the first church I have been involved in, actually the first church I have set foot in and perhaps no church would be a perfect fit, but I'm pretty sure I would be happier somewhere else.

I'm not sure if I should talk to someone in the church about this before making up my mind? but who?

Its difficult - if you pick the wrong person, they might make you feel worse rather than better. I went to one church where I was "damned to hell" by a member of the "welcoming" committee, for marrying a non-Christian.

It might be worth talking to your minister or your housegroup leader about it, but if I'm honest it does sound like you have big questions over issues they would categorise as non-negotiable, whih can make it difficult to discuss them freely.

Beansmum: if these people are making you feel excluded and unhappy if you don't agree with their dumbfuck narrow views then they are not good friends. They are bigots. Do you want your DC brought up around bigots? DO you want your DC to be misogynists and queerbashers? There are many Christian churches/organisations run by non-bigots, who are more interested in what their deities have to say about loving other people and being kind than about deciding what books to burn and who to execute.

Oh, and anyone who says that the Bible is the literal word of god, unless you actually speak fluent Aramaic, you're on a bit of a loser with that one.

Well, I used to be ok at New Testament Greek.... ... know what you mean though...

Right, I really need to find somewhere else, but it's going to be really really hard. All my friends go to this church and all ds's (although he is only 3 so probably not such a problem for him). And they are lovely people who have been amazingly kind to me.

But I'm sure I'm not completely deluding myself, I am right.

more prayer needed I think.

I would look elsewhere beansmum, unless you were really sure you'd get a nonjudgemental hearing...

crying now
I don't want to lose all my friends.

have you spoken to your "elders" or whatever your church calls them?

Am sure a lot of people go through this - we are made to question things arent we, Jesus disciples did and he didnt shoot them down for it

Look, you don't have to do anything you don't want to. If they're your friends, they'll still be your friends. If they're your friends, you could try tentatively broaching how you feel with them???

{hugs}