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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Can we have a positive thread about Catholicism?

547 replies

PadgettsDream · 01/08/2023 23:55

There is currently a thread running where there is a lot of criticism of the Catholic Church which is in many cases fair enough and it needs to be discussed but that thread in my opinion often strays into outright anti-Catholic sentiment and even bigotry against Catholics and Catholicism in general.

So I wonder if anyone would like a space to talk about the positives of the Church? I myself was raised Catholic, went to a convent School and it was wonderful really. I did not have any bad experiences and the Church has always been a source of strength and comfort for me. It doesn't dominate my life, I'm not brainwashed by it but its been an important foundation for me and I am thankful for it. In my own family history the Church stepped in and helped when nobody else would.

Any other positive stories?

OP posts:
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OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 05:45

My grandmother (born 1909) remembers the terror of the Black and Tans roaming Dublin - there was sexual assault committed by them.

CheesyWhatsit · 03/08/2023 06:00

DS has just finished y7 at a wonderful Catholic comprehensive. His teachers are excellent and have really got to know him and go the extra mile.

Though we’re not Catholic - we’re CofE, the RE teaching has been really thoughtful and engaging. I also love the emphasis on serving others and especially the poor.

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 06:00

Any ideas as to why there wasn't a functioning state education system, social care service etc in Ireland? Or why Catholics hadn't the right to political representation?

MariaVT65 · 03/08/2023 06:02

Interesting thread.

A positive for me is that I always hear catholic schools in England are well respected and perform well, and sometimes I think it’s a shame I wouldn’t be able to send my children there (I’m atheist from a Jewish background).

I believe the general issue is that people may not be fully educated about other aspects of Catholicism other than the teribble happenings highlighted in the news, in comparison with other religions. I think it’s also easy to become quite confused with all the different Christian denominations. Admittedly, most of my education of Catholicism comes from watching films like Godfather and Dogma lol, which obv don’t reflect normal life.

I have to do say though, my best friend was raised Catholic and has turned her back on it. I remember her always going to confession at uni. She is the loveliest person ever with a heart of gold and is so hard working, and I think it’s a shame she was brought up in a religion that seemed to make her feel guilty all the time.

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 06:10

Maria I think Catholicism has a local flavour wherever you go. I particularly like Celtic Christianity.

I don't appear to have 'shame' - I don't know why that is but I've always focused on the joyful aspect of faith.

Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 06:29

@Psyclops So for example, thinking that gay people are disordered, or that they should be allowed to be discriminated against, or that they bring homophobic attacks on themselves.

None of these are a part of Catholic teachings.

However, as I don't want to derail the thread, maybe you could start your own thread on this topic for everyone to debate?

Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 06:35

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 05:45

My grandmother (born 1909) remembers the terror of the Black and Tans roaming Dublin - there was sexual assault committed by them.

That was not acceptable, however, this is interesting,

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-catholics-made-up-10-of-black-and-tans-1.1154713#:~:text=%22Extrapolating%20from%20the%20sample%2C%20more,there%20were%2010%20English%20Jews.

Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 06:40

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 06:00

Any ideas as to why there wasn't a functioning state education system, social care service etc in Ireland? Or why Catholics hadn't the right to political representation?

I think that this is a question for another thread, where those who have studied Irish history in depth can respond.

I'm not trying to deflect, I just think that it is important enough to deserve a thread to itself.

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 06:45

It's certainly possible because many Irish Catholic men wound up in the British army - there were ads encouraging people to leave the slums of Dublin (it was termed like that) for the army in WWI. Where's the breakdown to show that the sexual assaults were committed by Irish Catholic membership? That would be interesting.

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 06:48

Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 06:40

I think that this is a question for another thread, where those who have studied Irish history in depth can respond.

I'm not trying to deflect, I just think that it is important enough to deserve a thread to itself.

Sorry I meant it ironically! To make people think...

I'm not trying to derail - I was writing in response to another poster.

Hiddenmnetter · 03/08/2023 06:48

I was raised Catholic and fell away from any practice in my teens, then came back when I was 21. It has changed my life dramatically for the better. I wouldn’t be married or have children today without it. I doubt I’d even be in a relationship. For me the most powerful impact is to be told “I am a sinner” without judgement- Christ knows and loves me as I am, and because of that I am able to accept (at least partially) that I have faults. Otherwise I am just defensive and full of ‘whataboutery’. Honestly I am a nightmare. Quite how my wife stands me I don’t know, but we almost certainly would have broken up early days if she hadn’t seen me actually able to take account of my own failings and try and make some amends.

Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 06:56

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 06:45

It's certainly possible because many Irish Catholic men wound up in the British army - there were ads encouraging people to leave the slums of Dublin (it was termed like that) for the army in WWI. Where's the breakdown to show that the sexual assaults were committed by Irish Catholic membership? That would be interesting.

That would be interesting, assuming such record-keeping was in place, and could be accessed.

I think what this shows is that when people are in groups, they often adopt a 'mob mentality' - think football hooligans - and behave in ways that they wouldn't singly,

This doesn't excuse the actions, just puts more context on the reasons behind some bad behaviour.

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 07:09

Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 06:56

That would be interesting, assuming such record-keeping was in place, and could be accessed.

I think what this shows is that when people are in groups, they often adopt a 'mob mentality' - think football hooligans - and behave in ways that they wouldn't singly,

This doesn't excuse the actions, just puts more context on the reasons behind some bad behaviour.

I think in this case it was traumatised men unleashed on a civilian population but nevertheless...

EarringsandLipstick · 03/08/2023 07:30

I'm Irish living in Ireland. I was brought up Catholic, as every person I knew was. I have several family members (uncles) in religious orders.

My faith was very important to me nearly all my life - I went to Mass even throughout university, and tried as much as I could when working abroad, for example.

When I had DC, I went to Mass weekly, and was actively involved in parish activities, church choir, Children's Mass, Nativity etc.

A few things happened. I experienced absolutely awful bullying & pure nastiness, and saw those I previously assumed were tolerant & intelligent & my friends behave in the most prejudiced & judgmental way, peddling utter untruths & conspiracy theories (abortion referendum). I was completely shocked. I found the decision on the referendum very hard to make, ultimately requiring an unreconcilable difference of views for me - I could see the hardship Irish women faced regarding unwanted pregnancies & was very moved, while inherently being of the view that life began at conception. I kept this dilemma to myself but the wider church group (all women 😐 ) put pressure on me to campaign on pro-life side, including sharing utterly false & repugnant information, which I refused to do, and then they decided I was 'pro-abortion' (untrue). There was no space for nuance. Even tho I never discussed my views, ever, the treatment I got was shocking. It occurred at a very vulnerable time for me otherwise, which they knew about & it really affected me. In retrospect, these women had been subtly nasty in other ways while hiding behind their mask of Doing Good. This group included barristers, teachers - educated, bright women, who were entitled to their views but not to peddle extremism.

By the end, I had to leave the choir (which I'd loved) and I stopped attending the usual Masses, to avoid them. Those who didn't participate in the behaviour stood by & did nothing. (It was like some kind of biblical parable!)

Around the same time, my dad died, very painfully and it was traumatic. The minute - the exact minute - he died, I had the sense of there being nothing. It was so strange. It was like my faith left.

I didn't actually want this, and have chased my faith ever since. I go to Mass occasionally, and sometimes find nice ceremonies / churches. But I feel nothing.

I've intellectualised it too, and read various theological books to see if I can understand it. Not so far!

I am not anti-Church, I can separate the failures of the Church, individual priests and the 'system' of the Church with the religion itself & the good that exists.

But I just don't have a faith any longer. I haven't stopped going to Mass fully as I don't want to close the door entirely!

I do think the confluence of events i mentioned, including the utter nastiness exhibited by Good Catholics, was largely part of it but not fully - there was definitely a moment of everything leaving, when my dad died, it was an instant & shocking feeling.

I commented briefly on the other thread before leaving it (I got hammered for trying to explain how Catholic education worked). I very much dislike the absolutism against the Catholic Church & wouldn't particulate in that.

I also think the Church is being blind to its future, old priests who cannot manage parishes, Masses being reduced - in my area, 3 parishes are essentially run by a small team of priests who basically run between churches to provide Masses & it's unsustainable. There's no meaningful planning for a future that's workable.

It does all upset me from time to time & I'm not sure what the answer is. I often wonder if I might join CofI maybe - tho my mother would probably drop dead on the spot so perhaps not for now!

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 07:44

Crikey I'm sorry to hear about that and the loss of your dear Dad of course which must have been devastating.

I was more involved at parish level at one stage but took a step back as ultimately I was more comfortable on the margins.

Maybe I have more in common with hermits than religious orders.

EarringsandLipstick · 03/08/2023 07:47

I should also say, that as someone who studied history as part of my degree, and did a lot of research into Poor Law initiatives in the late 19th / early 20th century & the follow-on as part of the early Free State, it's always frustrating that so much of the narrative is around the Catholic Church & the institutions that failed so many.

That's undoubtedly true but not enough attention is paid to the State and its failure to provide basic support to the most impoverished & vulnerable.

We are often very poor at nuance & moderate assessment in Ireland!

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 07:51

Yes, Earrings in my neck of the woods, priests are running from Mass to Mass from rural to city area.

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 07:53

Oddly enough I do enjoy a virtual Mass. During the pandemic I could attend my home parish in Dublin online. It was so lovely as I hadn't lived there in years and now couldn't afford to anyway 😂.

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 07:54

I do think the amount of travel between parishes means less interaction and a chat after Mass.

sashh · 03/08/2023 08:22

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Trufflepizza · 03/08/2023 08:40

@OscarsAmmonite2 I'm Irish! Don't get me started on what the Brits did to us.

Trufflepizza · 03/08/2023 08:55

It's interesting that no one can justify their choice to ignore all that has happened under the stronghold of the Catholic Church. @mathanxiety if you're referring to the rape of babies and children and the throwing over 900 dead babies into septic tanks as 'bath water', I've nothing left to say.
Peace and love to all

Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 09:07

@Trufflepizza It's interesting that no one can justify their choice to ignore all that has happened under the stronghold of the Catholic Church

It seems you have taken that post totally out of context

No-one is "choosing to ignore" the abuses that happened within the Catholic Church.

By the same token no-one is choosing to ignore The Holocaust, The Albigensian Crusade, The Armenian Genocide, The Katyn Forest Massacre. William the Conqueror's Harrowing of the North.

The whole of human history is (sadly) full of examples of man's inhumanity to man.
We cannot put the clock back. What we can do is learn from these events and try not to repeat them by putting laws/procedures/protocols etc in place.

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 09:17

Trufflepizza · 03/08/2023 08:40

@OscarsAmmonite2 I'm Irish! Don't get me started on what the Brits did to us.

Every institution protects itself not the abused individuals. Happens at Universities too - troublesome folk passed on other institutions.

OscarsAmmonite2 · 03/08/2023 09:18

Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 09:07

@Trufflepizza It's interesting that no one can justify their choice to ignore all that has happened under the stronghold of the Catholic Church

It seems you have taken that post totally out of context

No-one is "choosing to ignore" the abuses that happened within the Catholic Church.

By the same token no-one is choosing to ignore The Holocaust, The Albigensian Crusade, The Armenian Genocide, The Katyn Forest Massacre. William the Conqueror's Harrowing of the North.

The whole of human history is (sadly) full of examples of man's inhumanity to man.
We cannot put the clock back. What we can do is learn from these events and try not to repeat them by putting laws/procedures/protocols etc in place.

Exactly.