Can we have a positive thread about Catholicism?

[PadgettsDream]

There is currently a thread running where there is a lot of criticism of the Catholic Church which is in many cases fair enough and it needs to be discussed but that thread in my opinion often strays into outright anti-Catholic sentiment and even bigotry against Catholics and Catholicism in general.

So I wonder if anyone would like a space to talk about the positives of the Church? I myself was raised Catholic, went to a convent School and it was wonderful really. I did not have any bad experiences and the Church has always been a source of strength and comfort for me. It doesn't dominate my life, I'm not brainwashed by it but its been an important foundation for me and I am thankful for it. In my own family history the Church stepped in and helped when nobody else would.

Any other positive stories?

@Maireas , thank you. No I haven't seen those shows but it sounds really interesting. I have done a day retreat and I'm hoping to do an overnight one in a few months.

Iwasafool

If you read my subsequent posts, I meant to tag the post you were responding to which said:

You wouldn't criticise the Scouts because some predatory men used the organisation to cover their misdeeds

The inference from this being that it was only some bad men who were the perpetrators in the church. It's far more wider reaching than that, it was the institutional cover up and protection of predatory paedophiles that is the key difference and where the anger comes from. The view that the perpetrators should be prayed for and forgiven, not punished and removed. That they were very rarely held accountable for their actions because it would be embarrassing to the church. So no police action was taken and victims were left without justice.

Your description of supporting a victim of SA in the Scouts is harrowing. But thankfully you were there to listen and take action. Imagine a child telling their parents, a priest or nun what had been done to them, then being told what they were saying was a sin and that they needed to ask for forgiveness. Having no one to believe you because the priest is untouchable. The child is abused twice, once by the perpetrator and once through their faith.

That's the difference and that's the point I stand by. Not that child abuse is a worse experience in one organisation than it is in another, but because this particular organisation then abused the victim again by using their faith and trust against them. That's exactly what Sinead O'Connor was vilified for trying to bring attention to.

Before anyone argues about abuse in other faiths, this thread is about Catholicism.

I apologise for derailing the thread but statements like the one above just shouldn't go unchallenged because it's this lack of understanding about where the anger comes from that feeds anti-catholic rhetoric.

You'd like this series, @OscarsAmmonite2 . One journey was to Rome and they had an audience with the Pope. One of the group was Stephen K Amos, who is gay. He asked the Pope about attitudes to homosexuality.
Another one was St Iago de Compostela, and one was the journey of St Columba. Always a Muslim, Jew, agnostic and atheist as well as a Christian in the group. Always good discussions and an interesting journey.

@Maireas that sounds so interesting.

The Road to The Scottish Isles is on BBC iPlayer.

Thank you! I'll have a look through this!

Perfect - thanks! I've not done a retreat since school. I have several of Henri Nouwen's books on Spiritual direction but would love some time away.

For some reason I once thought Julian of Norwich was male...

I'm not Catholic, I'm a Non Conformist Protestant, but my DH is Catholic and we do go to each others Churches on occasion. There are elements of Roman Catholicism that I find very attractive - literally and metaphorically. Church architecture fascinates me and there are some truly breathtaking RC buildings (or ex RC ones in this country for obvious reasons!) Also the musical heritage and contribution to art. I think that Mass in a cathedral with a good choir is incredibly beautiful and moving.
I like the concept of pilgrimage and there's something special about the connection with the past. We were at an over 600 year old Catholic chapel a few days ago actually and there is something kind of mesmerising about the idea that basically the same act of worship has been carried out in the same place for so many hundreds of years. I've also met some of the kindest, humblest and most generous people I know through the Catholic Church.
There are more things that I disagree with though, both theological and organisational, so I will never convert, and I have also come across some of the most unpleasant people I have ever met there, but I guess you could say that of any denomination or religion. But having been brought up in a very Protestant background and initially finding Catholicism extremely strange I now see more positives than I used to, and there is an undeniable beauty in much of the ritual and history.

@Darkandstormynite your right, what happened in the Catholic church was abhorrent, the way it was covered up and the way paedophile priests moved around was even worse. Paedophiles are sick but the priests and bishops who knowingly moved these priests around were worse, but like I said before, the Catholic faith is more and goes deeper then the evil people who have been involved in the past and even involved now. As for praying and forgiving perpetrators, that is the belief of all who follow Jesus. We are asked to forgive for those who have hurt us, it doesn't mean we forget or that it dismisses the hurt that has been caused.

My husband is Presbyterian (a grandson of the Manse) and would agree with you on many points.

What would you define as "homophobia" ?

Thanks for explaining. It did seem strange but not obviously meant for someone else.

I do think that being gobsmacked was what helped the child to tell me so much. I can well imagine a shocked response might have stopped him in his tracks. I don't know of course but it was a feeling I had and when I realised that I just sort of carried on with the sorting I was doing while listening to him. I think it gave him the space to get it out.

I don't know if the child had tried to disclose to anyone else or if his parents had any idea of what had been going on.

@Darkandstormynite also I agree with you completely, these priests, should have been excommunicated and imprisoned for their horrific crimes. Many in the head of the church let down so many people down and some were complicit with their actions or lack off. If it wasn't for the brave survivors who spoke out we may never have known. Things are changing but unfortunately it's a lot slower then it should be.

This. Absolutely.

@mathanxiety I actually hadn't seen that post but totally agree with@PadgettsDream . When I returned to my faith, I was adamant that I wasn't going back to the Catholic church. I read about other religions and watched many videos. I was completely shocked that after all that I was leaning towards the Catholic faith. The more I researched and speaking and listening to many priests I came to realise that the Catholic faith was what I was looking for.

Iwasafool thank goodness you were there to listen to him. Right person, right place. I hope he was able to heal and find peace.

Gingerbreadandtea yes I think change has been slow. I think Pope Francis has tried to tackle this issue head on, but I think the church is in a tough spot of needing generational change with new clergy coming through that's more accountable and more aware, balanced against change not happening quickly enough to restore faith. There's no easy answer to this.

Thank you @PadgettsDream . I saw that thread and quickly avoided given the sickening ignorance and hatred. It wouldn't be allowed to stand about Islam or Jewish faith.

The Catholic Church has been around since the resurrection. Its been the same mass through the ages. Its a thread through history. Its easy to attack for all the things that happened in the past, even the very recent past.

There are many other institutions with past shame. To name a few: the BBC, the Royal family, hospital trusts, local councils, the government, some companies, social care institutions, universities.

The Catholic Church is big and made up of people who are fallible or in some cases there has been evil.

Our government is allowed to brand itself as shiny new after each general election and even now after a new leader pretending the sins of Boris are nothing to do with the current government. Yet the Catholic Church is carrying the weight of the collective sins of the last 2000 years. You often hear people talk about the crusades like thats a reason to avoid modern religion. The BBC isn't still being punished for Jimmy Saville. A school in special measures is allowed to be rated outstanding when it improves. Under new management is given the benefit of the doubt in say nurseries or a previously evil badly run company.

People have very long memories for any mistakes by a Christian.

I have found my faith again after years away from the church. The impact on my life is hugely positive. I am more charitable as a result.

My eldest goes to a brilliant Christian brothers school. Even the head disassociates from the actual brothers. They aren't in the school any more. Its run by educators. The connection with a global part of the Catholic Church is incredibly positive. We have a brilliant ethos based on the precepts of the founder of the Christian brothers. We have amazing facilities funded by the church.

I love the community and the values that being involved in the church has brought.

If you have an issue with every belief system or organised religion, as seems the case, then maybe this isn't the thread for you? Maybe read the room? Maybe read the thread title?

@Debopo
Yes, the sacrament of reconciliation (aka confession) is a Catholic sacrament. Catholics are supposed to receive this sacrament at least once a year.

Cover ups didn't just happen in the Catholic Church and they were all just as wrong. Do you think your dismissal of the abuse in scouting is offensive to the survivors? Do you think refusing to accept abuse and cover up in general (not just the Catholic Church) is actually dangerous?

The scouts don't use the police (in Boston - mainly catholic), the politicians, the media, the entire weight of culture and power. And it is deliberate. The Supreme Court in the US, is stacked Catholic. Out of all proportion to the population:

"This is not reflective of the U.S. population, as has been widely discussed in recent years. Our latest estimate from over 15,000 Gallup interviews conducted from January 2021 through March of this year shows that about 22% of the adult population identifies as Catholic, as opposed to the 67% Catholic representation on the court. Two percent of the population identifies as Jewish (Kagan represents 11% of the nine justices). The biggest disproportionality comes in terms of Protestants. About 45% of Americans are non-Catholic Christian, or Protestant, compared with what will be 22% Protestant representation on the court."

And these are the people tasked with looking at abortion. Deliberately trying to stack the highest court with a certain demographic to circumvent democracy is dreadful. Bye bye women's rights.

@MrsTerryPratchett
It would be interesting to research the religious affiliation of the justices of the Supreme Court over the centuries, particularly those courts that wrote rulings pertaining to racial equality and women's rights.

I think it's fair to assume that up to pretty recently, one of the aspects that has stood out wrt SC composition has been the dominance of white Anglo Saxon males, with women, Jews, Catholics, and African Americans only gaining a toe hold relatively recently.

The swings and roundabouts of the SC have reflected various societal and legal preoccupations throughout US history. The current court is no exception (with several recent justices appointed by non Catholic presidents and approved by Congress and Senate that are not majority RC). The way the SC works means cases arrive on its doorstep after progressing upwards through a long pipeline of lower courts. The court does not issue edicts out of thin air.

@ZenNudist The other thread is awful and it is unfortunate that some posters have felt the need to bring their anti-Catholic sentiment over here too.

I'm so pleased to hear that your renewed faith has brought such a positive impact on your life, long may it continue!

That thread is horrible, @PadgettsDream . I saw one post dripping with hatred and prejudice - fortunately it was deleted. Quite shocking.

yes, we can. I am Orthodox married with a Roman Catholic. I am aware what has happened in many churches in the past but the one we go to as a family sometimes has a very clean historical record and our priests are very very erudite and greatly loved by all families. And I never heard a sermon that Mary is a cult, or Mediatrix and the rest ....just normal liturgy, Bible reading, etc. I love catholicism