Page 4 | transubstantiation

Dasha8 · 2023-05-19T18:42:03+00:00

Do people really believe in transubstantiation (the substance of the bread and wine in the Eucharist becomes Christ's real presence)?

LilyBayswater · 09/06/2023 00:21

Sundaysundaebananasplit · 20/05/2023 00:46

I think there are a lot of cultural Catholics who do see the RC church as the familiar fiath that they grew up in, and one which they have a connection to, and ignore or disregard doctrinal issues they don't believe in because they have a relationship with that faith system which has served them.

I was the same until I started reading the Scripture and digging deeper into my relationship with Christ. My time in Catholicism was just a space to connect with 'something' that was bigger than me, but it was very shape shifty and vague and based a lot on my own world view, ideas, viewpoints and experiences. I realised that I had actually created my own religion where God thought just like me and what I believed what was, was right, and what I believed was wrong, was wrong, and it was all held together with a kind of loose, wishy washy sense of religious tradition. It was only when I started attending Protestant services and started studying the Bible that I found more structure and my faith became more Christ focused.

Transubstatiation was just another aspect of the RC faith that I kind of blocked out because it intered with the semi religion I'd inadvertently created in my mind. I think that's how lots of people can still be attached to Catholicism and yet not believe in even some of the core doctrine.

Anyway that's just my story and not anyone else's. Everyone has their own to tell.

This is a super interesting way of looking at this

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 09/06/2023 09:10

With intercession, my understanding (which might be wrong - I'm no theologian!) is that confusion arises because it means two very different things with regard to Mary & the saints versus Christ.

With Mary and the saints, the Church definitely says that it is OK to venerate them and to pray for intercession, i.e. for them to ask God for mercy or assistance for you.

But, in the RC Church, if you apply that to Christ, it is potentially heretical, because - for RCs - there is no hierarchy in the Trinity. Christ cannot/does not need to ask God the Father for anything, because Christ is indivisible from God the Father - in effect, He would be asking Himself.

With regard to Christ, intercession means something totally different - not praying to Christ to petition God the Father for you - but Christ's role in bringing humans to God and in reconciling God and humanity.

Inkypot · 09/06/2023 10:00

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 09/06/2023 09:10

With intercession, my understanding (which might be wrong - I'm no theologian!) is that confusion arises because it means two very different things with regard to Mary & the saints versus Christ.

With Mary and the saints, the Church definitely says that it is OK to venerate them and to pray for intercession, i.e. for them to ask God for mercy or assistance for you.

But, in the RC Church, if you apply that to Christ, it is potentially heretical, because - for RCs - there is no hierarchy in the Trinity. Christ cannot/does not need to ask God the Father for anything, because Christ is indivisible from God the Father - in effect, He would be asking Himself.

With regard to Christ, intercession means something totally different - not praying to Christ to petition God the Father for you - but Christ's role in bringing humans to God and in reconciling God and humanity.

Yes this is exactly my understanding too because as you rightly say, the Holy Trinity is one.
The Creed is pretty clear in this when it says:
"God from God,
Light from light,
True God from true God,
Begotten, not made,
Consubstabtial with the father"

It is being pretty blunt and emphasising they are of one substance and that Jesus Christ is God from God, he is God made flesh. It goes on to add the Holy Spirit is:
"The Lord, the giver of life, and proceeds from the Father and the Son" again saying they are all one.

So you're right, we cannot ask the Trinity to intercede for us in the same way as the saints because the Holy Trinity is all one 🙂
But we can ask the Holy Trinity to bring peace and comfort or guidance to those who may need it most.