A question/guidance for Christians please

[whatcanidotobelieve]

I think that really want to believe. I want to have faith. I want it so badly but I struggle to really accept the bible and its teachings. I have grown up in a religious country and a somewhat religious family, but as a scientist and seeing the hypocrisy of many christians from my hometown (in N Ireland), I struggle with the whole God/Jesus/Bible concept.

I'm not sure what I'm asking...I just wanted to see if anyone could help me?

Ah sorry, I’m a complete idiot and quoted the wrong poster re the bible I meant to respond to @GalaApples doh!!!!

I think that really want to believe. I want to have faith.

Why? I get that (for example) faith communities can be lovely but so can other types of community. Think hard about what believing something you know to be false is designed to achieve and consider whether you can meet those needs in another way.

All belief in unproven concepts (fairies, tarrot, homeopathy, flat earth, the utter righteousnes of one political view or magic beardy man in the sky who runs everything) require you to suppress your critical thinking skills and scientific training.

Many (most?) people can and do do that for lots of perfectly sensible reasons but if that's not you I think you'll find it difficult to keep up in the long run.

Hi OP, just in terms of other belief systems - I'm British and my grandparents were C of E, although my parents were both atheists.

I had faith as child, and devotion, but nothing to hang it onto. I tried a local Church group as a teen but the people (not trying to be judgemental!) were on the whole quite closed-minded, quick to point out people's sins, felt that gay people would go to Hell, etc. It wasn't for me and I put my devotional self away for a long time.

Then in my 30s I found a group of spiritual people who consider that all world religions are different experiences of the 'one' - a God/Goddess creator Being who has made Themselves known to people all over the world at different times, and been interpreted differently!

I would say that I'm especially drawn to the Vedic (ancient Hindu) texts, which date from about 1500 BC and say that souls are immortal, and that humans get re-incarnated after death in order to experience multiple lives. In this way a soul can develop different qualities - a bit like going to school! If you 'fail' one lifetime, like a set of exams you get a re-sit :)

In this world-view, the reason that children get cancer/ people die in earthquakes/ wars happen, etc, is for these souls to sit some very advanced exams... Then after those awful deaths, the soul grows from its experience and is born again.

It's a very spacious way of understanding human life - nothing is really "tragic" because it 'comes out in the wash' so to say :) and then you start over again...

My daily devotional practices are meditation and singing spiritual songs. I have had VERY deep experiences in meditation, very ecstatic bliss and joy, which have felt like a glimpse of what my soul is like after death and before birth... Or at least that's how I understand them.

It may be that outside of doctrine you can find a place where your faith is less conflicted/confined? If you want to DM me I can send you some links to some guided meditations that I love, that you could try.

Wish you all the best.

It's great this post is still getting responses. I really appreciate everyone who has posted.

My plan to go to church fell through as I caught a chest infection which floored me for a while.

@donquixotedelamancha

You asked why? Well, a big part of why I'm searching for answers. I was recently diagnosed with a terminal and progressive disease. I'm being treated and living life relatively normally now but that could change at any moment. Hopefully I will have as many as 20 years left and so will get to watch my two young boys grow to be adults, but I might have a lot less.

So I guess rather than getting angry or blaming God (which I just don't feel), I'm looking for answers, support, purpose, guidance, solace and hope.

I never thought that I would be in this position when I am only 38, but here we are.

I'm hoping I get to church tomorrow morning...I found one that I think might suit me.

Yes, all this. Love this

OP, I am very sorry to read your latest update about your diagnosis and possible prognosis. I hope that you will outlive it - treatment advances in that timescale are not impossible, and medical prediction is far from an exact science.
But however long or short your remaining life, a close relationship with God can only enhance it. Knowing that you are loved and valued by the creator of all things, and can turn to Him for support whenever you are afraid, angry, or suffering the effects of your illness, is a source of comfort. And when the time does come, He will welcome you home.

There is an old prayer - originally Irish, I think- which ends:
“May the burdens of the day
rest lightly upon you
And may God wrap you in the mantle of His love”
I will put you in my prayers tonight, OP, and include a mantle request for you! God bless.

I hold the (possibly heretical) view that the divine chose the incarnation in order to understand humanity better (and overcoming death is just a by-product of that, really)

But then, I realised at the age of about twelve that God changes his mind, and (definitely-heretical alert) have suspected for some time that we actually created the divine in the first place. In the same way that Mind is an emergent property of sufficiently-complex Brain (insects don't have minds, though possibly a hive might), maybe Soul is an emergent property of sufficiently-complex Mind (cats, dolphins, chimps?, dogs?); and Divine is an emergent property of sufficiently-complex Community of Souls.

So then all the omni-omni Creator of the Universe stuff is not actually the case, just the way earlier societies tried to grasp the concept of this force outside the immediate physical reality.

In a sense it's quite freeing, no longer feeling I have to be bound by the mores and customs of a bronze-age society but it does mean I have to think quite deeply on the ethical front.

(I hadn't read the latest posts when I posted the above. I'm sorry to hear about your diagnosis and I hope you can find some peace and happiness.)

merryhouse, I am struggling to follow your logic here.
One the one hand, you think an omniscient God didn’t understand his own creation - humans - and had to incarnate as one to understand us?
And then on the other hand that He didn’t exist at all and somehow evolved out of the humans that you don’t think He created?
These seem to be two very confused and mutually exclusive positions. Perhaps you can elucidate?

@merryhouse Sea of faith??

whatcanidotobelieve · 27/04/2023 13:30
I think that really want to believe. I want to have faith. I want it so badly but I struggle to really accept the bible and its teachings. I have grown up in a religious country and a somewhat religious family, but as a scientist and seeing the hypocrisy of many christians from my hometown (in N Ireland), I struggle with the whole God/Jesus/Bible concept.

I'm not sure what I'm asking...I just wanted to see if anyone could help me?

About five years ago the great scientist/cosmologist Carlos Frenk, who works in Durham but is Mexican and was brought a Catholic, was on Desert Island Discs.

It is a long time since I heard it but I remember that the interviewer said something to the effect that presumably, as a scientist, he did not believe in God.

He replied that he did, that science and religion are looking for different things.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b5s44q

@merryhouse
But then, I realised at the age of about twelve that God changes his mind, and (definitely-heretical alert) have suspected for some time that we actually created the divine in the first place

I am not sure, but sometimes wonder if this is what was meant by “The Kingdom of God is within you” Luke 17:21.

In Luke 17:20–21, Jesus says, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (NKJV)

I understand this part as God being the creator, full of universal energy.. therefore what he sees, understands is beyond a human comprehension.

Bad things do happen due to free will, but the effect on timelines due to these occurrences we can't see but he can.

Great things have happened due to unfortunate events. A murderous act is horrendous, from that act, a child grew up to become a police officer and stopped 4 crimes, another individual affected turned to medicine to save lives and the victim is with god. We will never see the follow on effects just the act itself. Like how after a forest fire the soil becomes fertile and different plants grow.

I see free will as choosing to turn to God in the midst of all that is wrong or all that is right.

I don’t think it works to say God wanted the rapist to rape, or it was the will of God that he did so, so that X baby would be born. But some one who was raped might choose to believe the baby is wanted by heaven.

There was a child’s religious book that showed a hawk flying after a sparrow. The sparrow escaped and that, the little reader is told, was because of the will of God. But it would also have been the will of God for the hawk to catch that sparrow, otherwise there’d be no more hawks. The book doesn’t say that though.

So for me, if God created the Universe, that meant God created nature and all that that entails, the good and the bad. It is up to us to make of events what we can, we cannot be passive, and through turning to God we hope to choose wisely, keep hoping, and keep trying and remember the power of God’s love the most creative force.

@Babdoc what you haven't realised is that (in a stance so heretical they'd probably throw me out if they knew) I don't agree that God is omniscient, and I'm pretty certain God isn't the creator of the universe either (despite reciting the Nicene Creed a couple of times a month. So sue me).

I like the Wording in the Gospel of Thomas

Here Jesus says, "If those who lead you say to you, 'look, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds will get there first. If they say 'it's in the ocean,' then the fish will get there first. But the Kingdom of God is within you and outside of you. Once you come to know yourselves, you will become known.

You might also be interested in The Emerald Tablet

OMG12 · Today 22:14

“ScrollingLeaves” · Yesterday 18:12

@merryhouse
But then, I realised at the age of about twelve that God changes his mind, and (definitely-heretical alert) have suspected for some time that we actually created the divine in the first place

“I am not sure, but sometimes wonder if this is what was meant by “The Kingdom of God is within you” Luke 17:21.”

I like the Wording in the Gospel of Thomas

Here Jesus says, "If those who lead you say to you, 'look, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds will get there first. If they say 'it's in the ocean,' then the fish will get there first. But the Kingdom of God is within you and outside of you. Once you come to know yourselves, you will become known.

You might also be interested in The Emerald Tablet
The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus | cabinet
https://www.cabinet.ox.ac.uk/emerald-tablet-hermes-trismegistus

I did not know the Gospel of Thomas or those words which are some of the most beautiful I’ve ever heard, thank you.

I shall read your link about The Emerald Tablet of Hermes later as it is late. Thank you for that too.

I went through that. I deeply believed in God and made the conscious choice to live my life by the Bible’s teachings (note I said Bible not church).

I went to 3 churches in a decade and my mum was a very strong Christian but the way she expressed faith was damaging as it was more about “avoiding evil spirits” and “conditions” so I never understood how God could love someone like me that had questions and thought for themselves. I couldn’t understand why churches and some Christians carried so much hipocracy (something Jesus mentioned multiple times). This made me loose faith in Gods people, but never God.

So I withdrew myself from all of it (this is contrary to what many Christians would say? But I’d also like to add that the modern church is unregulated and frankly anyone can set up a church - so if your spirit isn’t happy somewhere, ask God and speak to someone you trust with your spiritual walk) - also I became an unwed young single mum - so faced judgement, fakeness - the pastors were lovely but the culture was awful every time - and I naturally pulled away. Although I loved the idea of my daughter growing up in church.

Anyway whilst I was going to church I felt awful. The word was great but I never felt like it was home. After almost a decade I removed myself from church, read the Bible, and journaled, and prayed, and watched YouTube videos and caught up with Christian friends that I trusted whilst I got over what people call “church hurt”.

Something else I do is I have constant conversations with God about everything, for me God isn’t just a Sunday God but I casually speak to God about work, about parenting. I thank God whenever I have an idea and I do the work - for instance I’ve set up community based clubs and give back with my time. Having faith is a lifestyle. I continue to ask for a church family but until then, I pray that I can be of use in other ways and have a small group of unwed single mums that’s connected to a local church - we meet up often and are working at how we can change this culture within the church as it’s been so damaging.

To end I want to say having faith is a gift. The Bible highlights that not everyone will follow so if you are feeling a tug, act on it:
Ephesians 2:8–9 affirms this: “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Hi all,

I just wanted update as I really did find this thread so helpful. I have started going to a church where I am. I have been for 3 Sundays but already I am finding it a wonderful place to be. I look forward to my Sunday morning...I feel that the messages delivered so far really help answer some questions that I have (that I didn't even know I had).

I am taking it slowly as I don't want to force something that isn't real (if that makes sense)? I have started daily devotional a too to try to slowly build my understanding of the bible and how I can integrate it into my life.

I found last week that I felt very emotional during the service. When I listened to the words of the songs being sung, I struggled to keep my tears in and had to go the the toilet briefly to compose myself. It's like I can't believe that there is this God that thinks I'm worthy? That I'm enough? That I don't have to do everything and shoulder all my worries by myself? And when I hear and feel that He is there for me, it makes me want to break down...

Any insights welcome as always...

I am so glad to see this update. How wonderful that you are on this path.

I didn't see the thread when you originally asked. I am a Christian and also a scientist and am happy to offer a few thoughts if they might be helpful, including from some of the questions from your original post months ago.

The bible is a wonderful book full of powerful and inspirational words telling the story of the relationship between God and us. However it should never be mistaken for a science textbook nor should we pretend that the humans who held the pens were holders of perfect understanding or in receipt of a complete and inerrant revelation. There are flaws, contradictions and biases that come from the prejudices of the time and it's not disrespectful or unfaithful to admit that. If a passage us edifying and enhances your faith that is good. If a passage isn't edifying because it was clearly written by a sexist man who didn’t regard women as quite fully human then it's ok to pass over that bit and look elsewhere.

Don't worry too much about other people. You aren't responsible for them and their relationship with God is their own business. There are plenty of people in the church today who are there to make themselves look good, like the Pharisee in Luke18:10-14. God will visit them in theur hearts one day. We are called first to focus on our own repentance, and then to go out and do Jesus's work to do what we can for the poor, the sixk, the imprisoned and the oppressed. There being other people in the church who are on a different part ofvtheir journey shouldn't distract us from that. The church proper is not a club for those who are sorted. It's a refuge for those who know they are not. The fact that people who aren't really faithful try to use association with the church as a proxy for declaring themselves good while not being (and so being the hypocrites) can be frustrating but trust God to bring them to a more genuine version of faith one day. Their current status is just one step on a journey that will take all their life.

It's totally ok to get emotional from time to time when realising the magnitude of God's love. It's a natural response to something so huge. You are doing fine. I regularly have to stop singing because my voice has stopped working as I cry with joy realising the deepest meaning of the words I am singing. It's a good thing we sing congregationally so that one voice breaking off like that doesn't matter!

Interesting article to read. Also, watch some Alpha course videos and join one local to you.

unherd.com/2023/11/why-i-am-now-a-christian/

I too am so glad to read your update. Wishing you well on your journey of faith with our Creator.

Hi and thanks for your heart warming update.

Re your second paragraph, I couldn't agree more, it must be real for you, ie not just going along with the crowd, sort of thing. God wants an authentic relationship with you and taking it slowly is perfectly fine.

Re becoming emotional: you are not alone. I'm sure you will witness many people worshipping with tears for all sorts of reasons including your very natural feelings of being not worthy. Don't feel you must nip off to compose yourself - just go with the flow. You ARE very worthy and that's the reason for Jesus. You are perfectly, uniquely, you and are more than enough. Allow yourself to feel the emotion - it's all part of the journey and healing.