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elliejjtiny · 12/05/2023 13:19

Things like that shouldn't be swept under the carpet, it's not fair on the victims.

I remember the encouragement to give money at soul survivor. I only ever gave 30p or so but I can imagine people could feel obliged to give lots more than that. I agree that children shouldn't be tithing. In our church we have a collection in the morning service and some people do tithe 10% but lots don't and that's absolutely fine. No children tithe in our church either.

PrimitivePerson · 12/05/2023 13:51

I've been in plenty of churches where giving hasn't just been encouraged, it's more a case of leaders demanding money with menaces. Many churches define tithing as giving 10% of your pre-tax income as well, and struggling financially isn't deemed a good enough reason not to do it.

Charismatic churches tend to teach the idea that obedience in this area will create supernatural rewards, and if you're really deeply caught up in it, you'll really struggle to resist that sort of pressure.

UnbeatenMum · 12/05/2023 15:28

I went to a couple of SS festivals in the 90s. When the news came out a few weeks ago I had a vague impression that I hadn't been that keen on Mike Pilavacci or at least felt fairly neutral about him. I couldn't remember why until I saw the video of him humiliating the worship team on twitter, then I thought - yes - this was it. On the whole though I had a good time there with my friends and I felt it enriched my faith, I was there to get to know God better not Mike. So I don't personally feel devastated (for myself) although I do feel angry for the victims and that it seems to have been covered up.

My current church has built its safeguarding policy on guidelines from Thirtyone:Eight and takes safeguarding very seriously. I'd like to think that's common in churches today but sadly not universal.

elliejjtiny · 12/05/2023 16:28

@PrimitivePerson I'd forgotten all about it until now but I went to one church when I was a student where they handed round the collection plate and then the leader shouted that it wasn't good enough and sent it round again! They also did a "healing session" where they prayed loudly over people and shouted "are you healed?" at them. They weren't allowed to go back to their seats until they said they were healed. I never went back, it was so weird. I didn't realise that it was so common to have churches like that until now. I had dh with me so I just thought it was odd, not intimidating, but looking back I think if I had been on my own at that age I would have been really scared.

kiwiandcherries · 12/05/2023 21:29

@UnbeatenMum I could have written your post almost word for word!

And @elliejjtiny that sounds awful, so sorry you experienced that

PrimitivePerson · 12/05/2023 23:06

Safeguarding has always been a rather patchy business in churches, but it tends to get considerably weaker the more charismatic the leaders get.

The very first church I attended was a Baptist church, and they have pretty good accountable leadership structures. The minister is trained to a recognised standard, the deacons and elders are elected by church members, and major decisions are discussed and voted on. I went from there to what was known in the 90s as a "house church" or "new church", where absolutely none of those safeguards existed. The leaders were young, self-appointed and had no qualifications, beyond being "called by God" to lead. Their decision making processes were pretty much hidden away in secret, and they had pretty unlimited power to do what they wanted, and treat church members however they liked. There were no checks and balances at all. If you questioned anything, it was seen as turning against God's will. I only properly understood the very serious implications of this years later.

This is precisely the sort of environment Mike Pilavachi would have been operating in.

emmeline8228 · 13/05/2023 10:48

Paul Martin, who founded Soul Survivor USA in 2000, has spoken out to raise concerns about the Church of England investigation into Pilavachi.

He also claimed that Soul Survivor leaders in the UK were aware of allegations surrounding him as early as 2002. Updated story in The Telegraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/12/mike-pilavachi-soul-survivor-paul-martin-concerns/

'I introduced hundreds of young men to him': US Christian leader's fears over festival vicar

Soul Survivor US chief says he was horrified to find claims about Mike Pilavachi were not dealt with and calls for fully independent inquiry

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/12/mike-pilavachi-soul-survivor-paul-martin-concerns

woodhill · 13/05/2023 11:42

PrimitivePerson · 12/05/2023 23:06

Safeguarding has always been a rather patchy business in churches, but it tends to get considerably weaker the more charismatic the leaders get.

The very first church I attended was a Baptist church, and they have pretty good accountable leadership structures. The minister is trained to a recognised standard, the deacons and elders are elected by church members, and major decisions are discussed and voted on. I went from there to what was known in the 90s as a "house church" or "new church", where absolutely none of those safeguards existed. The leaders were young, self-appointed and had no qualifications, beyond being "called by God" to lead. Their decision making processes were pretty much hidden away in secret, and they had pretty unlimited power to do what they wanted, and treat church members however they liked. There were no checks and balances at all. If you questioned anything, it was seen as turning against God's will. I only properly understood the very serious implications of this years later.

This is precisely the sort of environment Mike Pilavachi would have been operating in.

Yes I know exactly what you mean, I experienced the house church which was more like a cult in the 80s. It hurt a lot of young people

PrimitivePerson · 13/05/2023 11:58

Certainly when independent charismatic churches started becoming a thing, they tended to break away from older (often Anglican) churches, and there was an attitude that said "let's throw out the rulebook and follow God!" It was all well and good saying that, but it failed to appreciate that structures and rules existed within churches for a reason. A bunch of overexcited twenty-somethings with no training and no real understanding of the responsibilities they were taking on turned out to be a recipe for disaster. I get why they didn't want to be held back by an ancient institution that seemed resistant to change, and I got swept along with all the excitement too, but like you say, it can turn into a cult very quickly without the necessary checks and balances.

LotsOfBalloons · 13/05/2023 13:23

I can't read the link as I don't have telegraph access. Is it elsewhere? Or readable somewhere?!

LotsOfBalloons · 13/05/2023 13:24

Do we think USA guy is trying to distance himself from SoulSurvivor -and if he's surprised why didn't he speak up sooner?

phdineducation · 13/05/2023 13:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Natsku · 13/05/2023 14:37

PrimitivePerson · 12/05/2023 23:06

Safeguarding has always been a rather patchy business in churches, but it tends to get considerably weaker the more charismatic the leaders get.

The very first church I attended was a Baptist church, and they have pretty good accountable leadership structures. The minister is trained to a recognised standard, the deacons and elders are elected by church members, and major decisions are discussed and voted on. I went from there to what was known in the 90s as a "house church" or "new church", where absolutely none of those safeguards existed. The leaders were young, self-appointed and had no qualifications, beyond being "called by God" to lead. Their decision making processes were pretty much hidden away in secret, and they had pretty unlimited power to do what they wanted, and treat church members however they liked. There were no checks and balances at all. If you questioned anything, it was seen as turning against God's will. I only properly understood the very serious implications of this years later.

This is precisely the sort of environment Mike Pilavachi would have been operating in.

My church was Baptist (my dad was a Baptist minister in fact) and I agree the structure of leadership was pretty good, when safeguarding came in when I was a teenager our church took it very seriously (which disappointed me at the time because I liked helping out in the creche and I was no longer allowed to do that). We would often visit other churches, dad sometimes going as a visiting preacher and the house churches were a very different feel, some made us quite uncomfortable. Though the only time we ever walked out of a service was when we were on holiday in either Spain or Cyprus, visited an English speaking church and the starting prayer went on for ages, I think we left after 20 minutes or so and they were still going strong!

vdbfamily · 13/05/2023 18:38

LotsOfBalloons · 13/05/2023 13:23

I can't read the link as I don't have telegraph access. Is it elsewhere? Or readable somewhere?!

New hack I learnt from another thread... if you are trying to read a link that is blocked, as you click on it, put your phone into airplane mode and somehow it lets you read everything!!

LotsOfBalloons · 13/05/2023 19:50

Ah genius yes it does!!! Thankyou that's really useful.

And gosh it was known 😔

BadSkiingMum · 13/05/2023 19:55

PrimitivePerson · 12/05/2023 13:51

I've been in plenty of churches where giving hasn't just been encouraged, it's more a case of leaders demanding money with menaces. Many churches define tithing as giving 10% of your pre-tax income as well, and struggling financially isn't deemed a good enough reason not to do it.

Charismatic churches tend to teach the idea that obedience in this area will create supernatural rewards, and if you're really deeply caught up in it, you'll really struggle to resist that sort of pressure.

The old prosperity gospel perhaps…

What do you think money is spent on and do you feel it is all reasonable?

BadSkiingMum · 13/05/2023 19:57

Oh, I’ll try that with the link

BadSkiingMum · 13/05/2023 20:04

It works…it works like a charm!

Interesting article - someone actually taking some steps to counter the bystander effect?

fairypeasant · 13/05/2023 22:04

When was safeguarding 'invented'? I remember DBS coming in after the Soham murders, but surely people knew something in the 90s about child protection?

Somebodiesmother · 13/05/2023 22:48

fairypeasant · 13/05/2023 22:04

When was safeguarding 'invented'? I remember DBS coming in after the Soham murders, but surely people knew something in the 90s about child protection?

It wasn't a child protection issue though. As far as we know all the victims were young men.

fairypeasant · 13/05/2023 23:04

I'm considering the lack of safeguarding (called 'child protection' back when I was a teen) more widely. This isn't an isolated thing.

Plus, I don't think whether the 'young' 'men' Pilavachi abused were pre or post their 18th birthday is the point.

LolaSmiles · 14/05/2023 06:23

It wasn't a child protection issue though. As far as we know all the victims were young men
They were young men, but if I remember correctly some of them have come through his youth clubs or Soul Survivor as minors, and it's still relevant to consider safeguarding in this sort of investigation.

Faith leaders were only added to the group of people covered by Abuse of Position of Trust laws in 2022.

fairypeasant · 14/05/2023 09:28

@LolaSmiles wow, so recent. Yet such a history of men using churches and religion to groom.

These young "men" were groomed from childhood for this. They were vulnerable, and actual men, old enough and privileged enough to know better, take advantage of that.

UnbeatenMum · 14/05/2023 10:19

fairypeasant · 13/05/2023 22:04

When was safeguarding 'invented'? I remember DBS coming in after the Soham murders, but surely people knew something in the 90s about child protection?

I definitely remember receiving safeguarding training as a children's worker at the baptist Church I attended in the mid-late 90s.

I believe MP's potential crimes come under spiritual abuse and abuse of power rather than child safeguarding/child protection, although a massage that travels too far up the inner thigh (to quote one of the news articles) sounds like sexual assault to me.

emmeline8228 · 14/05/2023 10:57

The scary thing about all of this is the wider issue of the church looking after its own and covering up things like this. I find it really disturbing that concerns were brought in 2002 and 2004 and yet nothing came of it.