Marriage, sex and identity from the Christian perspective.

[DancingLeaves]

In case anyone is interested in this important topic (Christian teaching on marriage, sex and identity)

www.greaterlove.org.uk/events/.

That statement says that 'Christians' cannot be the same as 'people who support same sex marriage'.

You said that Christians will disagree with those who support same-sex marriage. So you do you explain those who don't?

@TeamRR So you do you explain those who don't?

I don't know what other peoples' reasoning is, so I can't answer that question.

It seems the LGBT militants are out in force on this thread;

www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/2020/september/lets-burn-a-church-when-lgbt-activists-threaten-to-attack-uk-police-try-to-silence-pastor-instead

I guess you haven't listened to them then. Have you taken part in LLF?
Have you studied theology?

I've done both. I've listened to both sides of the conversation. I can see and understand elements of all the arguments.

I can see very clearly that there are excellent theologians and really good people on both sides of this argument.

"It says in the bible" is used by both sides. It's not a crystal clear argument at all.

There are Christians and good people on both sides of this debate. There are some nasty bigoted ones on both sides of the debate.

We are not supposed to judge, but man I feel judgy when I listen to some of the table slamming on this.

There is no way through it if we don't listen and compromise and look for imperfect, gracious solutions.

@Bécassine You post is concerning.

I am curious to know what denomination your church was where you had this experience.

I know of no church that would try and re-order someone's sexuality or "kick them out", not in UK anyway.

Are you from USA and joined some weird fundamentalist group/sect?

Have you had counselling to deal with the anger you obviously feel about what happened to you?

I know of no church that would try and re-order someone's sexuality or "kick them out", not in UK anyway.

Really? You have been lucky enough to experience quite a narrow range of Christianity then.

In my experience of evangelical churches there are a lot of people like this. A quick search of MN or any other forum where Christianity is discussed will show you that this is sadly not an unusual experience in the UK.

And a news story from some American right wing website has what to do with the OP?

As a theological honorary post-graduate now embarking upon a theological Master's Degree and also due to be ordained, I can fundamentally tell you OP that there are MANY viewpoints and debates around the topic of sex and marriage in general, let alone same-sex relationships and marriage. Please do not imply to others that all Christian's believe and support the same things because we simply do not.

Sharing a link such as that with no context and replies insinuating you cannot be Christian with an opposing view to your own, in my opinion, is not showing the love of Christ very well. Was Mary Magdalene not a Christian in Jesus' eyes because she possibly engaged in prostitution? The answers no. How about the woman caught in adultery? The answers no. How about Paul who murdered people? Extreme examples but you get the gist.

I'm sure you may not have meant any offence and don't see this as an attack, more of a gentle nudge and plead to think about what you say first - especially on a topic so broad and traumatic for many.

No, some Christians will disagree. As some Catholics are pro-life many (about 60%) are pro-choice, or at least accepting of abortion in certain circumstances.

Many many Christians support same sex marriage. Many have married but in civil ceremonies. Gracious, there are even same sex married couples who attend Mass.

@donquixotedelamancha That's interesting.

It seems to be one of the fastest growing denominations world-wide,

www.christianpost.com/news/religious-populations-growing-faster-than-atheists-worldwide.html

Oh and I'd kindly point to Matthew 7:1

@steaval And a news story from some American right wing website has what to do with the OP?

It's about a church in Newquay UK

There seems to be a lot of complaints generally about churches being horrible to the LGBT community.

I was just trying to redress the balance by pointing out that (as far as I know) Christians aren't threatening to burn down gay peoples' houses.

@CozyCatwoman unfortunately there's at least one in every city or large town. CofE tend to tiptoe around it, not teaching either way and accommodating all perspectives.

Evangelicals are more likely to have speakers who were 'rescued from a life of sin', reconciled with their child/mourning their child who has 'adopted a life of sin' etc etc.

The Salvation Army isolate people who choose same sex relationships (careful wording- I believe they welcome celibate gay people).

As for growth, the same churches who teach against same sex relationships also teach generous giving. They then have oodles of money to spend on quality services and attract people to their congregations thus swelling their services.

Those of us whose churches are a bit more old fashioned tend to be less well supported financially and less able to appeal to younger, wealthier people.

The vast majority of gay people aren't threatening to burn churches either.

Sadly my neighbour won't come to church because of the inequity she sees. She would be welcomed. She would not be judged. But the institution of the CofE has failed to assure her of their acceptance, so she distances herself.

OP is encouraging people to go to a homophobic conference so you thought you'd trawl the right-wing American news media to find an example of someone posting something threatening on Facebook. Which I'm sure no Christian has ever done.

Still not seeing the link.

I can't/won't comment on whether that conference is homophobic.

I would say that not everyone who is against same sex marriage is homophobic. Some see it as a language definition thing. Marriage, by definition, cannot be between people of the same sex, in much the same way 'woman' cannot include men who wear dresses.

Obviously some people would feel denying gay couples marriage is homophobic.

Yes it's concerning, because it happens. In most cases, conservative Evangelical CofE church. I've deliberately made it a broad story because it applies to many different individuals at different churches and I didn't want to use someone's individual personal trauma. How do I know? I'm a liberal Christian who attends conferences to discuss theology with similar Christians, and many have stories like that one.

Your post sounds like you're blaming me for my experience. Aside from the fact it's not my experience, because I thankfully was able to extricate myself from my evangelical cofe church before I worked out I'm not straight (when they started preaching same sex celibacy and abortion is murder I had to give my head a shake), that is unfair. The CofE Evangelical church I attended briefly explicitly told me "we're not a cult! We're CofE!" to entice me in. Churches often use tactics to attract vulnerable young people and then tell them they're going to hell if they disagree with any of the teachings. Or if they're Catholic (happened last year to a fresher student I met who had attended a bible study at an evangelical cofe church advertised as everyone's welcome).

And yes thanks, I've had plenty of therapy. So have some of my friends who have been hurt by the church. Doesn't mean hurting like that is okay.

You said that Christians disagree with same sex marriage. The point is that many don't.

@picklemewalnuts As for LLF IMO it's just a crock, another attempt of the C of E to 'square the circle'.
It makes no formal recommendations and is such a diverse range of teaching and learning, it's basically impossible to sum up.
While a growing number support same-sex marriage they are still very much in the minority and change isn't going to come any time soon.

Discussion in the C of E over 40 or more years hasn't really been about evaluating different views but whether different views are reconcilable.
In all this time the C of E seem to have learned nothing.

One of the biggest bloopers that was dropped was making the C of E like the Houses of Parliament and we all know how well that works.🙄
So now we have a situation where the 'world and his dog' gets to have a say – leading to an example of that old adage 'a camel is a horse designed by a committee'.

IMO the Church should be Episcopally lead not pushed forward from the ranks.

The most famous blooper of all was the Ordination of Women Priests which we were told was going to be the salvation of the C of E, making it more sensitive, compassionate, inclusive and family friendly.
What it actually did was cause the haemorrhage of over 1000 priests who crossed the Tiber in protest.
It caused a schism with the Traditionalists who left and wanted pastoral oversight from their own bishops.

Congregations are still falling and falling out.

From what I have seen from the opinions presented in the consultation (LLF) opinions of respondents are not presented in quantifiable form so the House of Bishops is no wiser whether to accept a Conservative or Liberal interpretation of the Church's teaching on sexuality.

My break with the C of E came before this when mismanagement of funds at Diocesan level in my area resulted in a £2million deficit that had been running for several years. The answer was to raise the parish quotas to make us all pay for this monumental cock-up.😡
That was the final slap in the face for many of us loyal Anglicans and I for one made it very clear that we hadn't spent our time working our backsides off fundraising so some muppet at head office could spaff it up the wall.
Most of the PCC resigned including the Secretary and also several members of the congregation.

We all found new spiritual homes with the RCs, Western Orthodox or Evangelicals.

So as far as I'm concerned the C of E can go to Hell in a handbasket.

One of the biggest challenges the CofE faces is that we are a very broad church. We have churches at the reformed end that make the strict baptists look sloppy and others at the high end that look like the RCs did fifty years ago. The conservative reformed end are likely to be strongly against SSM which they have made a first order issue. At the Anglo Catholic end a large number of priests are gay. Some are already civil partnered. I've had fellow priests refuse to shake my hand because I'm a woman. It isn't easy.

The Living in Love and Faith project was about listening. It wasn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but it wasn't about proving that one side was right and one side was wrong. As has been said there are many ways to read and study the Bible. My parish, which is more liberal than I am, found it fascinating to study the sections on the Bible in the LLF book and see where their understanding comes from and how that is different to some of the conservative churches.

If people want to stay within the CofE then we have to work out how we live with the historic tension of a church that is a mixture if reformed and Catholic. We have a different ecclesiology to reformed and RC churches which can be hard to get your head around as it isn't much taught at theological colleges so it isn't surprising congregations don't know about it.

My hope is that the bishops and synod can come up with some sort of deal where the parishes that are happy to bless and marry same sex couples can do it and those that don't want to do that don't have to. It is what we have with the remarrying

Of divorcees.

Cozy, as Tea says, The Living in Love and Faith project was about speaking and listening.

It was never intended to guide anyone to an opinion, but to encourage us to talk about and listen to the different understanding around the various subjects.

I move in vicary circles and was really interested to find out what those around me thought, and why. Many of them would not have spoken up in any other context, because the aim was not to persuade browbeat anyone, but to explain and understand all the different perspectives.

I changed my own position slightly as a result, and definitely understood the position of others better.

My final conclusion (so far) was that actually I can't decide on behalf of other people what the right course of action is. I can only decide for myself. There was a gay Christian who had decided that celibacy was the correct path for him, and I respect the choice he made and the reasons for his decision. It's not for me to say that he isn't living out God's plan, only he can know.

Others were in same sex marriages- and again, only they can decide whether that's the life they are called to live.

It sounds as though as congregations we may be called to make a decision about where we stand as a church. That will be a very painful process, I fear. Perhaps made easier by the stance of the vicar, in benefices with a single minister. In other words, our vicar will choose for us and we won't get to consider it until she leaves!

Interesting times.

My story is quite similar to that told by @Bécassine. Charismatic / evangelical Baptist churches (home and uni). Came out to a few before I moved cities in my late 20s, and it was clear that this was Not A Good Thing.
In new city, tried to find a church to go to, and was told at one that the minister would want to 'explore those things with you' - which I know full well is code for 'tell me I"m a terrible sinner' and so I didn't go to church again for about a decade.
Now I go to CofE church where I'm welcome.

Don't underestimate the harm that churches did and still do - not every church, of course - but it does happen. The ones that say 'everyone's welcome' on their website, but actually mean 'as long as you play our way', or 'but not you', or will welcome you, but you can't get involved in any ministry, or do children's work, or (in some cases) take communion. It's sometimes subtle, sometimes no, but its there.

I think LLF was basically a 'kick the ball down the road' exercise to avoid having to make hard decisions. We'll make a show of listening to people and then do nothing. I'm glad the bishops have started speaking out and there does seem to be a groundswell of support, which is interesting. I'm not feeling overly hopeful though. I wonder if eventually there'll be alternative episcopal oversight, as there is for those against the ordination of women. We're 30 years past that and are living with it, so perhaps the same can be done for same sex couples.

Forgive me, but I think Jesus might have had a few things to say if Mary had continued the prostitution after her conversion! Same goes for Paul murdering people.