C of E relevance in modern Britain

[mids2019]

The succession of Charles III to the throne has brought the C of E into focus. The ceremony associated with the new King is very much integrated with the C of E which now has a new head. Westminster Abbey becomes the focus of our national attention and Charles is quite open that monarchy is supported by divinity.

The question is with an ever decreasing attendance of C of E services nationally and a decreasing number of people claiming they are a member of an organised religion would it ever be appropriate to consider a separation of church and state? The separation would allow a constitutional monarchy that could be readily related to by all faiths including Catholicism and remove that sense that any member of the total family is heavily pressured to be religious.

I think it would be complicated to separate the monarchy from the C of E. After all the C of E was created for the British monarchy and as the official religion of the British state. What would the C of E be without the monarchy? I think it would perhaps lead to faster decline of the C of E and possibly of the monarchy too as there would be a loss of much of the pomp and ceremony and a disconnect from historical rituals which people seem to enjoy and find useful perhaps on a psychological level.

Would all the churches taken over by the C of E be restored to the Roman Catholic Church I wonder, if this did happen?

I find it a really interesting question and look forward to reading the opinions of others on it.

The Anglican Church in Wales is not an established church. Neither is the Anglican Church in Scotland. It would be complicated legally to unpick church and state in England but if that happened then Anglican churches in the UK would still continue. There is no state funding for churches so no difference in the stress of trying to find £100k for a new roof from 50 pensioners with grant making bodies refusing to consider funding religious buildings. It might make life easier.

I take the above points but is there a point where children become C of E members by default i.e. it is easier to see the state church as the obvious route into Christianity? Certainly it would be difficult for the monarch to say he didn't believe in God if ever he reached that personal conclusion. Does the monarch being the defender of the faith become less relevant in a modern religious society where there are many different denominations of Christianity? There are many relatively new Pentecostal churches for instance that attract many members yet there is a lack of link to the 'established church' or Christinaity in this country.

There have been historical separation of the church and state in the US and France and yet Christianity is still very much relevant in those two countries so I don't necessarily think a separation of the monarchy from the church would immediately result in a precipitous decline in church attendance or Christian belief.

A separation would allow the C of E to thrive on its own with obvious the Biblical teachings of Christ being of fundamental importance as in imost other Christian denominations. In fact I believe the C of E is becoming increasingly grass roots led anyway. There would be no pressure on congregants to defer to Monarchy if they were republican in nature.

The lack of a state church may remove the need for any performative declaration of faith that may be required by politicians if date occasions have an integral religious component.

Ds and I were listening to the new king earlier, and he seemed to imply that God chooses the monarch as the Head of the Church, is that right? Like the Catholic Church believe God directs the cardinals in their choice of the Pope?

I commented to ds (age 13) that it was surprising that people would believe that. Ds said “well I guess God chooses which family you are born into”

We aren’t a particularly religious family so I was slightly startled!

I wonder though if other denominations would serve religious needs better, Methodist or Baptist for those who like that style and Catholic for those whose spiritual tastes are more high church. Without C of E schools primary schools, and the C of E being the go to for Guides, Scouts, army, Remembrance Sunday, Christmas carols, hatches matches and dispatches etc it might lose even more relevance even faster.

No. It’s identity and history and pretty hard to have a monarchy without religion, even a constitutional one.

the implication that the Church of England is outdated doesn’t stand. We already have space for a plurality of faiths and religions. However the country should have its identity and main branch of faith, as every other country does.

this energy could be better spent else where, like holding government policy accountable.

sincerely, someone who was raised religious and is now non practising of any religion.

@Weefreetiffany

Interesting point. We will possibly have the most watched C of E funeral ever in a few days and we will see the C of E at its most formal and the clergy being integral to the UK establshment. In a sense the majority of people in the country will have some passing religious moment (however transient) when they observe the funeral. I think there is a contrast to the day to day attendance of C of E churches and general religious obeyance in this country. A PP has mentioned that our state churches though obviously beautiful and historical are poorly funded with historically poor attendance.

Do we use the C of E as part of our national identity when convenient i.e. as a form of patriotism through links to the monarchy without considering deeply the teachings of Christ? I know a few who have not attended church, prayed or read the bible in decades yet are happy to declare themselves C of E to support their sense of identity i.e. dedicated to King and country and by default the churxh.

Maybe that is no bad thing OP. You never know when seeds sown but having lain dormant for years, even decades will sprout.

But I think the C of E is part of our culture and heritage and state structures whether we might be considered proper Christians or not. The C of E belongs to all British citizens who want to access it for history, culture, identity or faith. Maybe there should be funding through state, or a charity similar to the National Trust to support the buildings.

I mean to say occasional exposure, and identifying with the C of E can lead to some truly converting who otherwise would have no contact with any form of Christianity and also to the propagation of Christian values throughout society.

@PomegranateOfPersephone

Really interesting points. The idea of the C of E with dwindling frequent attendance becoming more of a part of our cultural and national heritage rather than a truly vibrant church without the attendances of yesteryear may unfortunatly become a reality in my opinion.

It would therefore benefit older churches to receive more state funding for the maintenance of buildings especially cathedrals.

One thing that does spring to mind though is that the current head of the C of E is both a divorcee and an alleged adulterer. Is this a problem? Personally I am not judgmental but the head of the church may demand a high standard in public and private life (in some people's opinion). Would having the Archbishop of Canterbury take up a lead role help?

I get what you are saying about divorce and adultery but it was a couple of decades ago. Perhaps he now regrets these things and wishes he had behaved differently. Divorce and adultery seemed to be at epidemic levels in the 80’s.

It would be hard to find a man of his age who hadn’t made mistakes. No human being is perfect after all. The question is whether he now subscribes to the values of the church of which he is now the head.

I think the Queen conducted herself with exceptional dignity and grace. She is a hard act to follow.

It has seemed to me that the C of E has been happy to water down its version of Christianity to be as inoffensive and undemanding as possible in recent years. Perhaps people who are looking for religion are more attracted to something which feels solid and sincere rather than wishy washy as the C of E can sometimes come across.

I'm not sure about watering down the message of Christianity unless you mean that it isn't a conservative denomination. The CofE is reformed Catholic which gives a wonderful diversity of expressions of church from conservative in both its reformed and Catholic expressions through to the contemplative and academically rigorous life of the cathedrals. On the way there are praise bands, choirs and ordinary parish churches trying to do the best they can with huge fuel bills and overstretched clergy and volunteers.

The C of E belongs to all British citizens who want to access it for history, culture, identity or faith.

As someone British who was raised Catholic, I don't recognise that at all. The C of E was for others and we were most definitely excluded. I'm completely non-religious but I feel no links at all with the C of E.

I am probably a fundamentalist atheist, so let me put that out there first.

I grew up in a village where most activities were either directly or indirectly tied to the church. So the hall belonged to the church, the school of CofE, and all the festivals were well attended. I go back now, thirty years later, and there is one vicar for five village churches, because attendance has disappeared. The school is still there, but no longer CofE, now an MAT non-denominational.

Whilst the RF have a centuries long association with the Church, most people in my life are atheist, agnostic or humanist. The Monarch has to be Defender of the Faith. I don't know if a closet atheist can be a Monarch, or if they have to abdicate...but some previous holders of the post were hardly moral or exhibited pious behaviour.

I believe in the disestablished CofE, and for the Bishops to leave the House of Lords, to stop them influencing laws-making and trying to cling on to power within the Establishment.

I firmly believe that the CofE can exist happily separate to The State, because there are still parts of the country where they are still the drivers of culture and history. A lot of the King's duties are linked with anachronistic historic traditions, but there's enough support for these to keep going.

As for me, an ordinary citizen, the CofE only touches my life when I visit their buildings as a tourist, as I see them as historical landmarks rather than religious ones. I accept the CofE as part of our past, but not our future. We are so multicultural now, the CofE cannot claim to be the leaders in religious matters anymore. And if the bishops must stay in the Lords, then so must a Rabbi, an Imam, a Guru, ...

Maybe there should be funding through state, or a charity similar to the National Trust to support the buildings.

So the state should pay for the promotion of Chrisitianity?

It has seemed to me that the C of E has been happy to water down its version of Christianity to be as inoffensive and undemanding as possible in recent years.

It still doesn't allow same-sex marriage.

The Church of England was set up by a King who wanted a divorce, and then had five more marriages (beheading two wives along the way), so I'm not sure Charles has all that much to worry about...😁

One of the strengths of the CofE is that it allows for a broad range of views - from Anglo-Catholic to evanglical charismatic to liberal and anything in between, so can be seen to 'stand' for lots of things and perhaps be a bit wishy washy. That strength is also one of the weaknesses though, in that the ABC tries to hold the Anglican communion together, taking into account a wide range of views from differing parts of the world (same sex marriage, for example). It's a bit of a tricky one!

Charles has always said he defends all faiths and promoted acceptance whilst being c of e. Did you see the faith team out today with the ab of Canterbury, ab of York, prominent rabbis and imans?

"I get what you are saying about divorce and adultery but it was a couple of decades ago. Perhaps he now regrets these things and wishes he had behaved differently. Divorce and adultery seemed to be at epidemic levels in the 80’s."

I doubt he regrets marrying Camilla. Thankfully attitudes to divorce are more relaxed than they used to be.

At a CofE service I attended today, the Queen was practically deified, which I object to. She was/is an incredibly wealthy woman who lived a life of extreme privilege, easy to be devoted to God, good works and never experience challenges to your faith when you never struggle to put foot on the table.

Food, not foot!

@espresso14

Interesting. Do you think there has been a secular deification of QE2 over the last week? I think the funeral will be interesting as the primary focus of a C of E funeral is God and his mercy on the deceased. 30 million people are settling down to listen to Bible verses which I don't think reflects the current number of religious people in the country

Can we gloss over Charles' adultery and divorce as head of the C of E? I think this is open to debate as any member of the he clergy who has strong opinions on sexual morality may feel he cannot do ully support the head of the church having a less to han perfect marital history.

Secular deification is an excellent way of putting it, I have deliberately turned off from that by trying to ignore media as it annoys me. Perhaps it is the secular deification in culture around us, that meant the the tone/content at my service was rather OTT today - they were perhaps trying to reflect what is being conveyed everywhere.

Good point on Charles III too.

The same watererd down and inoffensive church that wouldn't let Desmond Tutu's daughter lead the funeral of her own godfather?

The orthodox and most African churches are teaming with people and are Extremely busy on Sunday and Saturday so I’m not sure where this white person’s idea comes from church services declining This perspective only really seems to be In regard to white British people Europeans Africans and other cultures go to church and it’s very busy maybe try going to one of those. And not everyone has been asked

“The CofE is reformed Catholic” @mostlydrinkstea

As a Catholic I can safely say that the C of E is nothing like the Catholic Church, there are a very small % of Anglo-Catholics that love to camp it up and therefore claim they or we are “High Church” but when it comes to actual belief and doctrine they loudly make sure to let the world know they disagree with us completely on anything that isn’t currently popular.

For Catholics whether we attend a Mass in a physical building that is historic and beautiful, 70s brutalist, modest and non descript, or the makeshift altar is on the front of an army vehicle in the middle of a war, the Mass is exactly the same. For a believing Catholic they will want to know where the Mass is and will go to a school gym or clearing in the woods if we know the Mass is there.