Conforming

[SueBaroo]

I'm fairly well-known as a Christian on MN, and there's very little that would sway my beliefs on that.

I came from a fairly muddled up and confused background to being a Christian, and it all co-incided with me getting married.

The trouble is, I think I've lost myself in all of it. It's almost like, I was convinced about Christian belief, but all this other stuff attached to me like goose-grass when I went to pick the Christian belief up.

Now, I've got no intention of dropping the Christian belief, but now I'm trying to figure out how to disentangle it from from all the other stuff that seems to have accumulated around it in my life.

I've already managed to shed the notion that contraception of any kind is a sin (and managed to get my Dh to deal with it ) but I'm trying to look at positive things now - who am I, not who am I not.

Does anyone have the faintest clue what i'm talking about?

I think I know what you mean, but could be way off the mark. Don't hesitate to tell me .
Sometimes we can be so beset by the trappngs of religion that we forget the essentials. The text that came to me was Galatians 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
I think the last bit is the most important, because so often we get so tied up in loving God that we forget that He first loved us and that our whole life is a response to that love.
Am I on the right track or have I completely muddled you?

No, you're very much on the right track. I've been learning so much about grace in the past few years, and gradually my eyes have opened to how much I've accepted as 'Christian' which is nothing of the sort.

I've always had trouble fitting in with the Christian groups I've found myself with, and I'm becoming aware of how much I've sort of assumed was the way to do things because other people who believed did them.

I've always been a bit of a non-conformist, but it's amazing how you can squish yourself into a mould without knowing. But I don't want to jeopardize my faith, you see, so I don't want to chuck the bad out and lose the good. Having to tread carefully, I think.

What kind of church are you in at the moment, if any?

A conservative baptist church. And a wide circle of Christian friends that have a certain view of things, right-wing, I suppose.

Although, to be fair, not so much my church, which has probably been the reason I've started to think outside the box again, bizarrely enough.

As an example - personally, I'm very interested in 'alternative' holistic medicine and general crusty thinking () and that's considered by most of my friends as the province of left-wing hippies (who, of course cannot be Christians ). But then I've had conversation with pagans about those things that interest me, and they spend the whole time making nasty comments about Christianity.

Oh, bum, this is all so hard.

We are in a baptist church too, but I don't think I would call it 'conservative'.
I would have no trouble with alternative medecine, but cannot do without 'conservative' "saved-by-grace = live-for-Christ" theology. Churches can be really difficult, but ime a necessary 'evil'
Can you make clear (if only to yourself) what 'brought this on'?
Pagans who are nasty about Christianity have their own problems; I wonder sometimes if they would not rather be safe within organised religion, but then I don't know many pagans

Hi Sue,

Just to reassure you, I have a number of friends and family who I know really love the Lord Jesus and are pretty clear-thinking on what they believe who are into alternative medicine!

I guess the issue is what ideas have come as a package with your Christian faith, and whether it is possible to be a Christian and not hold those ideas. And the difficulty is that each idea has to be taken on its own - they don't come as a package. For example, I don't generally have a problem with Christians using contraception (prayerfully, not selfishly!), and I am very supportive of homeschooling although we don't really do it ourselves. One good friend of mine is a firm no contraception homeschooler, and I sometimes worry with her that she has made it into something that Christians have to do - a work, rather than grace being all. She and I both agree that the Bible has wise things to say about the roles of men and women, but it is hard to work out how those things work in practice.

Babies and bathwater spring to mind!

My Bible study group did Rev 2 this morning about forsaking your first love, and it has really brought home to me that it is possible, like the Ephesians to be doctrinally conforming to Scripture and persevering under pressure without actually loving God. So I think DO is right to challenge us to think about what God has done for us and to respond in love. You're absolutely right, it is all grace. Anything good can become a barrier between us and God if we do it so he will love us - or more often so that we will fit in with other Christians.

I've gathered from some of your posts on other threads that you have some health problems - and you've got 4 kids (I'm not stalking you, promise!). I too have four and find it really hard to keep close to God as just me. What would my relationship with God be like if no one else is watching, I sometimes wonder? And if I spent the time with him rather than on MN, maybe it would be a whole lot better...!

I can't believe that if you commit yourself to looking for God and his purposes for you first, that you won't find some of your questions about the other stuff falling into place. And I'm always happy to debate - apart from the gospel, anything is up for grabs if the reasoning is good enough!

So tell me to stick my nose out if you'd rather - I just wanted to let you know that someone else was listening. I love reading your posts on MN - always great for a laugh or a positive Christian point of view, .

Sue, forgive me for butting in here, but is there someone within your church you could talk this through with? Is there anyone assigned to dealing with this kind of discussion?
I wonder if - this may be an alarming suggestion - you could think about some sort of retreat? I think these kind of questions are better considered away from the hustle of everyday life.

There certainly seem to be lots of different viewpoints held by people who all call themselves Christians. Some are, for instance, conscientous objectors and absolute pacifits, others in favour of killing 'unbelievers'. Some are accepting of sexual diversity and the ordination of gay priests, others want to burn the 'faggots' at the stake or whatever. Some are creationists, some are sane more rational than that.
I think you've kind of got to fathom it out for yourself, but I have the impression that there will be some kind of Christian (ie believing in Jesus, saying prayers etc) community for you whatever the rest of your beliefs are like.

PP, the notion of 'what's in the package?' is exactly what I'm talking about.

Harpsi, the retreat is a good idea, I've been mulling that option over. It's not something our church 'does', tbh. I shall have to pursue that on my own, I think.

But the problem, I hasten to add, isn't my church per se. I think it's broader than that - most of my Christian friends who don't even go to my church are of this particular conservative stripe. I think I'm trying to wrestle with the fact that if I'm actually truer to myself, I'm probably going to alienate a lot of people, and I'm a bit of a coward about losing the support network.

Madamez, you're quite right about all the different flavours of Christianity, thankyou for pointing that out. It's good to be reminded that even if I do go out on a limb, there's bound to be someone who can relate to me somehow.

Thanks for your replies, everyone

sue, perhaps you don't belong in a 'box'. after all, Jesus didn't create categories, he tried to break them down. If your friends are true christians (ie those who do more than pay lip-service to love thy neighbour as thy self etc) then they will accept you for who you truly are.

Oh, I don't doubt they'd accept me. Like I say, I'm just being a chicken about approval, which is the most unlike me thing about it all.

It's like anything and anyone, I suppose - once you learn something, it's hard to get out of the mindset that 'this is the way it is done'. So really, the only obstacle is me. (I knew that, didn't I? )

Think my previous post might have come across as patronising and I didn't mean that at all. Sorry if I've offended you, SB.

IME there are two sorts of reasons for wanting to reassess stuff that I have always gone along with. The first is that I have come to realise that I can't fit it together with the central beliefs of Christianity of which I am convinced. The other sort of reason is that I don't want those things to be true, and I'm looking for a way out. Don't really want to give examples lest I start a debate on a particular issue, but I guess there is a difference between something I am trying to make sense of as a 'integrating it into my world view' issue and something that has very real (and unwelcome!) implications for how I live my life.

Your reasons may be different altogether. And I guess whatever you end up thinking there is always the situation of trying to find a balance between 'I don't want to offend or break relationships with my Christian brothers and sisters' and 'I have been trapped by this issue to the extent that my relationship with God is being damaged'.

Babbling again!

yes I think that is broadly right.
I think tbh you may need to distance yourself from your church before you can think clearly about it.
it's tricky isn't it?
now forgive me if this is insulting, but what I might do in your shoes is speak to my local parish priest, i.e. my Anglican vicar or even Catholic priest they have a pastoral responsibility to you and (a) they might offer you some insights or (b) they might irritate the heck out of you and you might violently disagree with them but either way it might be helpful to crystallise your thoughts.
as you know I am somewhat estranged from th echurch but the Anglican vicars I have met (and there have been plenty!) have been - to a man/woman - thoughtful and interesting people and often very well educated and have an interesting perspective.

pp, good gravy, I wasn't offended. No sarcasm intended in my reply - I was agreeing with you.

fwiw, I think it's definitely the first of the two options. The contraception thing is the best example, really. Part of this 'Quiverful' idea. It's only very recently that I've come to see how completely based on unfounded assumptions it was - and I was pregnant non-stop for about 6 years on account of it. Same with the women thing. I've been challenged on MN before about my passivity over the conservative Christian viewpoint on women's ministry, and that highlighted some hypocrisies I'd been indulging in (which is a good thing to have pointed out, btw).

Harpsi, yes, I've got a good relationship with the local anglican vicar and his anglican vicar wife. Good sorts, they are. I even go to their church from time to time, wicked ecumenicalist that I am I shall give them a ring.

How does your DH feel about you reexamining stuff, if that's not too cheeky a question? Is he cool with it or is it shaking his world just a little?

Ha, he was quite relieved about the pregnancy thing, you might know! I think he's just putting it down to my periodic depression. He's been quite committed to some of these same things in the past, but I'm thinking the gilding is wearing off them for him, too.

Dunno about the women thing, actually. Think he's convinced of the conservative position, whereas I'm mrs wibbly-wobbly know-what-I-think, but can't square it with scripture just yet.

I'm still conservative in my core theology, if you like - believe in the standard gospel, without metaphor - it's the outworking of it. What does it mean to be living in grace? Are some of the things I've been told are sin actually sin. I've mentioned contraception, what about dancing? Or pre-marital dating? Or trousers for women? etc.

Now, some of those seem really obviously silly, but they're all things that came with the package. Dh is at a double disadvantage because he was raised like it, so it's a whole lot of upbringing to sift through, too.

Most of all, I want to get this right for my children - especially my girls, because girls seem to bear the heaviest consequences from some of the things I've believed. I mean, for all intents and purposes, I'm disabled because of it, and that can't be right.

Sue, it may seem strange for me to be on this thread but I really feel for you.
I think you need to be a little kinder to yourself and - if I can suggest this - maybe try a little harder to keep yourself safe? just deal with as much as you can, and then tidy it away for a while?
if you are HEing then it must be difficult to find time for yourself, to think.

SueBaroo, it sounds to me as if you're at a bit of a crossroads. I think all you can do is ask God what HE wants, and leave it to Him. Don't try to force the issue, don't try to come to a decision on your own. Talk to the Vicar by all means, see whether he can come up with any useful suggestions.

God calls to us in different ways, it isn't always what we want to hear, and that makes it hard sometimes, but trust in Him, for he is faithful.

I remember when I lost the support network of my church (my own choice in a way, although I didn't feel I had a choice at the time). I was completely lost for a while, but now I really feel I am where God wants me to be. I'm still making mistakes, and I still have crises of confidence, but I keep going, somehow.

You will keep going, until I pray you get to the truth of what it is God wants of you.

God bless.

'it's amazing how you can squish yourself into a mould without knowing'

oh goodness, Sue, yes. Unhelpfully for you, I don't have this experience in relation to Christianity - am reasonably happy with my woolly liberal high-church Anglicanism - but especially since becoming a mother have become acutely aware of how many times in my life I have done or not done things because they were expected or the path of least resistance, or seemed to come with a particular territory. Some years ago I had an experience which forced me to take a stand and break with a lot of those things - my parents cut me out of their lives because I refused to leave dh - but a lot of stuff I'd forgotten resurfaced when I had the boys. Also, my parents and I are now edging towards each other again, but they still refuse to accept dh, and the question is arising of how this is going to work out long-term: how do I negotiate two utterly clashing sets of loyalties, how far do I (as it were) compromise my marriage (which is not in the best of health atm). I had to make a very drastic choice and while I am rather somewhere in the shades of grey between, in fact, the people driving the circumstances required me to turn completely from the one set of expectations and completely embrace the other. Sorry, this is all utter rambling which has nothing to do with your problem, but the boat we are in is similar in some ways. Church is family, after all, for better or worse.

SueBaroo

I have a lot of empathy with you, though from a slightly different perspective - I am a Christian who was formerly a member of a Pentecostal denomination... I felt like so many things I did were tied up in that church ethos rather than what was actually Biblical and I'm still in the process of being stripped down to my "bare self" aside from "churchy" ways iyswim... especially as so much of my (West Indian) culture was tied up in the denomination. It's so hard to unravel and discern between the Biblical versus the traditions of men.

I agree with harpsichordcarrier - don't be so hard on yourself I don't mean to sound at all trite, but I do believe that the Lord knows what you are going through and that He will guide you through this rough period in your walk. As for getting it right for your children, I think that they will see that Mummy is human and is open to changing things in her life that weren't as she thought - surely that's a positive thing long term?

I'm so rubbish at putting this in writing but I just want to encourage you that this will get better (((more virtual hugs)))

Sue: I agree with the posters who say you should be kinder to yourself. While I don't believe in any gods, my understanding of the best that religion has to offer is that a god (Jesus or whoever) is supposed to love and understand human beings, and to want them to make the best of themselves, as well as being a source of support and comfort. And I can imagine some gods being a bit fed up with those of their followers who have skipped the bits about kindness and fairness and got all hung up on bashing unbelievers and subjugating whole classes of humanity.

Really need to get to bed but couldn't go without assuring you of my prayers for you (something easy to say but hard to do! but I will). To bring these things up to the surface to question, especially when they have caused such real difficulties for you, must be such a hard thing. Please hang on, not your own strength and understanding but to God's. You are not alone, you really aren't.

Must go but not to bed as DS3 is screaming his little head off. Why, why thought he'd got this sleeping business?!

I've tidied out my wardrobe today. As a person, I am most comfortable in jeans and a t-shirt. My wardrobe is full of floral-print dresses. I've vacuum-packed them away and got Dh to put them in the loft.

I feel like I've just thrown away part of my identity, but that's not a bad thing, it's just a moment I sit and go 'huh. Who knew dresses could be so much like chains?'

Because I hated them. I wore them because I believed it was important to be modest, and I took my cues on modesty from folk who wore only dresses, because trousers were immodest. I've spent years feeling like an out-of-place frump, and this past year or so, I've started to change, but I only just realized I was keeping the dresses in the wardrobe so I could conform when I felt I should.

So they're gone. I think I am starting to be shocked at how much I am complicit in my own oppression, really. I'm not being hard on myself, just realistic - I've messed up, and there's no-one to blame but myself.

You talk about coming away from thinking that contraception is a sin and from wearing floral dresses. I would love to hear you 'unpack' some more of your thoughts on how the outer conformity and the inner conformity link up.
I would guess it lies deep in your past and is connected with the way you were brought up. Or not?

Hmm, maybe. Brought up with very little boundaries - the strong boundaries of strict legalism were comforting in contrast, I suppose. I mean, I really did live a very mixed up sort of life - promiscuously bisexual, drink and drugs, massively dysfunctional family, all that.

I think it just felt safe after everything else.