"Living in Love and Faith" CofE discussion course

[BuanoKubiamVej]

The Church of England has a long-term project running to discuss matters of identity, sexuality, marriage and gender which has included lots of committees and research groups and a book and a whole load of films and podcasts, and now a Discussion Course to allow groups in churches to work through all this material and think about it more deeply.

So far I have attended session one of the course and listened to some of the podcasts. I am hopeful that the church might be approaching these topics sensibly, not expecting to reach a unified and universally accepted conclusion but trying to learn how to incorporate a heterogeneous spectrum of opinions into a single church.

I don't know if there are any other Christian MNers who are doing this course or have engaged with the book/podcasts etc, but if you have then I thought it would be worthwhile to have a thread about it. Anyone up for this?

I'm in. I need something new to do during the weekends.

I'm doing it - session 3 this week.
I'd be very interested to hear what you both think if it.

I've done it - ran it at our church with the curate last Oct/Nov. There's a deadline of Easter for churches to have engaged with it - extended from Christmas 2021 due to covid.

We've been granted a bit longer as were interregnum for ages, but PCC and Leadership team starting at Easter.

New Vicar is conservative (with c and C) whereas were on the whole a pretty Liberal Church. We know there's going to be disagreements but we have stated this must happen.

No idea what the outcome will be, I think likely a group of the congregation will leave either way . . .

Why does the church consider itself an authority on other people's relationships? I don't get the bizarre intereset that the chuch has in what consenting adults do with their genitals.

I go to a Methodist church and we have done a similar program called 'God in love unites us'

Might be worth a read alongside the course as there is a report of findings now

www.methodist.org.uk/our-faith/worship/singing-the-faith-plus/seasons-and-themes/themes/god-in-love-unites-us/

There were definitely differences of opinion but living together with contradictory convictions is the way they are going

So one example is they have approved same sex marriage, but if a specific minister is uncomfortable performing the ceremony, they won't force a person, but will find an alternative minister that is happy to do it

@speakout

Why does the church consider itself an authority on other people's relationships? I don't get the bizarre intereset that the chuch has in what consenting adults do with their genitals.

What a vulgar post. Obviously members of the church look to the church for guidance? But you know that already.

I started reading this (am CofE though fed up with their stance that a biological man can marry another biological man only if he declares is is a woman). Got fed up and stopped.

Rosieposie101

More vulgar that the church passes judgement om people's relationships.

@drspouse

I started reading this (am CofE though fed up with their stance that a biological man can marry another biological man only if he declares is is a woman). Got fed up and stopped.

Have they though? I understood this course was to help find a path around the different perspectives on all the subjects.

I've watched most of the videos, and was very interested by them. My views flip flopped back and forth, frankly.

I'm still reading and listening.

My tentative conclusion (at the moment) is that these are decisions individuals must take for themselves. If a homosexual man feels he is called to celibacy rather than to same sex or opposite sex marriage, then that his choice. If he's called to same sex marriage then who is the church to say he's wrong?

'Because the Bible says....'

Is the traditional view and interpretation is that homosexuality is wrong. Some would say even being gay is wrong, others would say it's ok to be gay, but not partake in 'homosexual acts'. Others think it's fine to be gay, and in a relationship, and a civil partnership's ok but not marriage, some think being in a gay marriage is fine (all justified by/with various Bible verses and the interpretations of said verses).

The Church of England holds all views, and different churches within the CofE hold different viewpoints on this.

My feeling on LLF is that it's good as it gets people talking and thinking, but I think ultimately its an exercise in 'kicking the issues into the long grass', though I'm hoping I'm wrong.
It doesn't address (what I think is ) the important question - is being gay a choice, or something you're born, and while not 'the norm' (like being right handed), it's definitely 'normal' (like being left handed).
Because how that question is answered then dictates how you treat gay people in your church. If you think it's something natural, then why shouldn't you treat them as you treat any other human being? If it's a choice, then it leaves you open to be as discriminatory as you like (and some churches are).

It seems to me the conversation is about people hearing that their devoutly Christian neighbours understand the subject differently. It's about realising that our own is not the only sensible viewpoint.

Once people can hear each other's reasons for the beliefs they hold, they don't get to say 'I'm right, you're wrong'.

For me, when both sides accept the other side has a perfectly good, biblically based rationale for their belief, they have to stop claiming the high ground and that everyone else just doesn't spend enough time with God/studying the Word.

The Bible doesn't give unarguably clear guidance that homosexuality is wrong, IMO. So it's up for discussion.

I believe the problem for the CofE is that a sizeable chunk of the congregation don't accept gay marriage. And I find that difficult to accept, in this day and age.
But I do have a problem with them piggy-backing trans issues on top of it, which is a completely different ball game (for me).
And I have a real problem with the way that there is a sub text that people don't accept certain things is because they are afraid.

@speakout

Rosieposie101

More vulgar that the church passes judgement om people's relationships.

Yes, much more vulgar.

The church is doing what the church should do - helping Christians to navigate difficult and confusing situations where the modern world and modern values are clashing with the word of God in the bible, and so people need guidance with this. It's difficult and conflicting. I don't know why you're acting like this is just something the church is doing wrong

We have started this. It isn't easy as the material assumes you need the technology to watch videos which we don't. When you scratch the surface my apparently liberal congregation is not as liberal as they claim they are. Many of them grew up at a time when homosexuality was illegal and it tends to be the ones with LGBTQI+ children and grandchildren who have done the work of listening. It is going to be an interesting journey.

I’m not doing it but I subscribe to inclusive church, am very liberal, and have read a lot of books in the subject generally.
I am continually surprised by the number of conservative millennials I come across.
I find it an interesting topic.

@mostlydrinkstea there's a book version as well. You probably need to go online to find all the versions, though.

@Catinabeanbag

'Because the Bible says....'

Is the traditional view and interpretation is that homosexuality is wrong. Some would say even being gay is wrong, others would say it's ok to be gay, but not partake in 'homosexual acts'. Others think it's fine to be gay, and in a relationship, and a civil partnership's ok but not marriage, some think being in a gay marriage is fine (all justified by/with various Bible verses and the interpretations of said verses).

The Church of England holds all views, and different churches within the CofE hold different viewpoints on this.

My feeling on LLF is that it's good as it gets people talking and thinking, but I think ultimately its an exercise in 'kicking the issues into the long grass', though I'm hoping I'm wrong.
It doesn't address (what I think is ) the important question - is being gay a choice, or something you're born, and while not 'the norm' (like being right handed), it's definitely 'normal' (like being left handed).
Because how that question is answered then dictates how you treat gay people in your church. If you think it's something natural, then why shouldn't you treat them as you treat any other human being? If it's a choice, then it leaves you open to be as discriminatory as you like (and some churches are).

Beautifully put.

Thanks all for joining the thread. I realise that since starting it I haven't managed to post any of my own thoughts - this is not for lack of wanting to, but I am finding it quite difficult to condense my confused thoughts into a coherent post.

I am glad that the church is having these conversations. I don't think that the (what I sincerely hope will be a) lack of any firm conclusions at the end of the process, is any bad thing. It's not "kicking it into the long grass" to say that some questions are not going to have nice, simple and firm answers.

I just came across a nice opinion piece by David Mitchell who writes:
Religion, many people think, is supposed to offer clarity: rules and salvation. Eternal and unchanging truths. The woolly and hand-wringing Church of England, the state religion of an increasingly irreligious state, coping with declining congregations and disintegrating architecture, might seem like a poor excuse for a belief system compared with its muscular and unwavering rivals. Far from converting people to its doctrines, it seems more concerned with accommodating the faithless.

Maybe that’s why I like it. To me, the troubled, thoughtful and well-meaning fogginess of the C of E feels much more truthful, a much more comprehensible and sane reflection of how the human condition feels, than all those more dynamic philosophies. Other religions may have retained the fiery naivety of youth, but the Anglican church has the mild and tolerant befuddlement of experience, which is the closest thing to wisdom that I’ll ever believe in.

@picklemewalnuts yes I'm wading through the big book adapting material for my offline congregation. Those with the technology to watch the videos can do so but that isn't all of them. One day we will have a big screen in church and we can all gather round for silver screen movie tea and cake but that isn't this week!

I was irritated they didn't release resources for publicising your events- template flyers etc.
I've made some up, but it would have been easier for everyone especially those who don't do Canva etc to just release something in Word.

I've done sessions 1 - 3 of this course. We are taking a break for General Synod and then half-term.

I am enjoying it so far.