Christians - is the bible misogynistic?

[buckeejit]

I was raised in a staunch Presbyterian family. I'm basically the black sheep. I do believe in God & think some of the bible is good but I wouldn't take it all as gospel as so much of it is mental, outdated & doesn't remotely fit with my strong feminist views which are very liberal.

My eldest brother is a preacher & I'm seeing a lot of him lately as our mum is terminally ill. He has really been rubbing me up the wrong way & gives me strong superior vibes. He's not used to people disagreeing with him I guess but his sanctimonious manner is really pissing me off. It led me to reflect that I find that's the case with a lot of preachers & perhaps if they all believe everything literally in the bible, it's not any wonder they think women should know their place.

Just looking others thoughts & how you reconcile being a Christian with feminism & the bible? Or do most people pick & choose what they take from the bible?

I don't think it's a question of being 'selective', it's more a matter of understanding the context and literary and historical background of the texts. Much like we don't read a science textbook and a novel in the same way, but they can both be true and teach truths, we have to be able to read the Bible in a way that is sensitive to its composition and recognises the different genres within it, it's not just one book. And so, yes, I absoutely take some parts of the Bible literally and other parts figuaratively, because this is how it's written.

From my pov (I'm studying for a doctorate in theology), it's absolutely the job of professional theologians to spread their learning, and the job of every adult Christian to make sure they're as well-formed as they can be. It shouldn't be news to anyone in the pews that the Bible needs to be correctly interpreted in order to be understood, as does any other ancient text.

I’m very much thinking along your lines OP. I’m Catholic and grew up in a tradition which taught me many values that I appreciate and which have continued to shape my outlook. I was lucky to have two very inspiring male priests and a few who made me think and whose thoughts I appreciated hearing. Humility, love thy neighbour, care for the weakest - socialist values basically!! Since I’ve been following American Christians (mennonites etc) on social media, I’m basically losing my faith, because they say they read the bible as the absolute truth. They seem to know the bible much better than me. Feel like at church we heard the same gospel stories and reading over and over and not the ones these Christians refer to (they never seem to quote the gospels though strangely! Never hear them quoting about turning the other cheek (love guns) or the Good Samaritan. Just about female submission and not living in fear (to justify not getting the vaccine). Again no-one quotes the texts where celibacy is held up as the ideal but if you can’t manage that, better get married I suppose! No American Christians seem to leave their home and family behind to follow Jesus (all have 10 children instead and seem to spend a lot of time making their homes look ‘cute’ with ‘Fall’ deco). However it did get me thinking about whether the bible is or isn’t the word of God. I feel it is a fascinating text full of wisdom but written within a certain society. The rules of the old testament make sense for creating a functional society at that time (not so much Jesus’ teachings) and the writers of the bible certainly have personalities and voices of actual men with biases and flaws. So where does that leave us? Pick what you like or follow it to the letter? I don’t know and it’s a problem for me.

The Divine is a feminine entity. Priestesses were suppressed and driven out. The power that controls religion has nothing to do with the Divine. It was never about suffering, it was always about love. There is no day of reckoning and no heaven and no hell. There is only love.

Op. I'd really recommend a book by Sarah Bessey called Jesus Feminist.
www.amazon.co.uk/Jesus-Feminist-Radical-Notion-People/dp/0232530734/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&crid=UR72433RF00W&keywords=jesus+feminist+sarah+bessey&sprefix=jesus+famini&srpt=ABIS_BOOK&qsid=259-2974637-2975745&sres=0232530734%2CB0160F0SSW%2C0281085153%2C1476717583%2CB00M0DK4BK%2C0232534187%2CB00FVI955W%2CB077CXDKYB%2C1580512186%2CB007FS5TF6%2CB01DPNCOX4&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1631883459&sr=8-1

She shows different ways in which the Bible can be understood that hang together but would be pretty different from your brother's interpretation.
She is a great writer and easy to read too!

The Sarah Bessey book was recommended by @hanahsaunt upthread too, but the reviews on goodreads are pretty unanimous that it is only going to be useful to a fairly narrow subsection of women who are already in a specific theological niche.

I echo the recommendation for "Women in a Patriarchal World" and also "Consider the Women" by Debbie Blue

Yes I recommended the Bessey book too.

I love this author, Lucy Peppiatt - all of her books dig down into the context to reveal different understandings of passages we might take at face value to support a contention that the Bible/Christianity is misogynistic.

Rediscovering Scripture's Vision for Women: Fresh Perspectives on Disputed Texts www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0830852719/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_YWDYAM2WJY6VQH5G0PQK?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

I need to read and then re-read this thread. I also go to a presbyterian church and this is an issue I find very difficult.

@KihoBebiluPute

The Sarah Bessey book was recommended by *@hanahsaunt* upthread too, but the reviews on goodreads are pretty unanimous that it is only going to be useful to a fairly narrow subsection of women who are already in a specific theological niche.

I echo the recommendation for "Women in a Patriarchal World" and also "Consider the Women" by Debbie Blue

I am not sure about this. Her overall approach to writing is very much to document her own journey but acknowledge that everyone has different thoughts and goes through things differently. She doesn't insist someone takes her viewpoint but encourages individual investigation and study of Bible themes and passages.

[quote buckeejit]@ZenNudist so you read some parts of in a literal translation & some parts not? I struggle as the bible is kind of the rule book & obviously it's not as relevant to today's society but then, what's the point of it. Is the history part remotely accurate? For someone who has a strong faith in God but a guidebook that I don't feel much faith in, or sufficiently intellectually equipped to translate, it just makes me feel lost.

What is the point of a church service then -is it to listen to different (mostly men's), interpretations? Thank you for the recommendation-I will look up that site & the prayer thread.

@Toddlerteaplease yes but I guess I don't find that sufficient. I'm sure my current perception of my brother's misogyny - which admittedly is probably somewhat clouded by grief, is causing me extra struggle, although this has been a bugbear for many years. There doesn't seem anywhere to discuss these issues. I have zero interest in talking to a minister, even if one was interested in discussing it, as I can't imagine a situation where it would be a conversation among equals & another man pontificating & expecting me to agree would not be helpful.
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Read it yourself and make your own mind up?

The point of a church service is to worship and do so with others. If you see everything through the lens of gender and don't want to listen to someone just because they're a man, that's very sad.

I think you also have a lot of prejudices about ministers. Sure, if you choose a 90 year old one, you may get pontificated at. But you'll find the average mumsnetter (and I'm one of them) is likely more self-righteous, judgemental and prejudiced than the great majority of ministers you may talk to.

When you say 'I have zero interest in talking to....' then you've said it right there. You have questions but don't want to ask those who probably know the most about those questions.

My previous minister was not only a woman but a lesbian and feminist, and a military chaplain! Her sermons were always very intellectual, thought provoking, and feminist. She was a double qualified lawyer and minister. Her take on the Bible was always via a female lens, with an excellent grasp of theology.
She was on the national committee that approved openly gay ministers in our church.
I wish that the PPs labouring under the delusion that all ministers are misogynistic sexist old men could attend one of her services.

The problem is the source material which is The Bible will always be misogynistic. No amount of feminist female clergy will ever change that fact!

ChunkyMonkey - I felt the same - but then I found out about the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. I don't know much about it yet, but apparently it portrays her as an apostle and the only apostle who understood Jesus's teachings properly. Unsuprisingly, it's not included in the traditional patriarchal Bible! I also read once that the holy spirit is meant to be female, although I need to check.

In the OT the word used for the Holy Spirit is 'ruarch.' Hebrew is a gendered language unlike English and 'ruarch' is feminine. The NT is written in Koine Greek and is 'pneuma' which is apparently gender neutral. I was rubbish at languages so I have to trust those who have studied it.

That gospel sounds interesting but the fact the mainstream church doesn’t include it speaks volumes! The church and the Bible are sexist. Women waste their energy trying to find different meanings or interpretations. I don’t get it! It’s really not worth it.

I think that ancient societies generally had more fixed gender roles (by necessity because stronger men do manual labour to bring in the food while women with breastmilk stay home and look after children/recover from most recent birth. I also think the majority of ancient societies were patriarchal basically because the strong oppress the weak whenever they can get away with it. So I don't blame the bible for being patriarchal because it was written in a time of patriarchy, and I think it's significsnt that the bible generally (and Jesus specifically) holds women in much higher esteem than the rest of society at that time. I think the same can be said about biblical verses on slavery. Someone once explained it to me that nowadays we have a huge body of evidence that cars are bad for the environment, but you can't just tell everyone to give up cars altogether because it would be unworkable. So instead we talk about reducing car use, even though we know that eliminating it altogether would be better. So you can apply the same principle when looking at things like slavery or subordination of women, because the bible was better than general attitudes at the time and was dragging society in the right direction.
I'm sorry if your brother is being a knob, but he shouldn't be using Christianity to defend misogyny because that's the opposite of what it is