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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Christians - is the bible misogynistic?

65 replies

buckeejit · 14/09/2021 18:37

I was raised in a staunch Presbyterian family. I'm basically the black sheep. I do believe in God & think some of the bible is good but I wouldn't take it all as gospel as so much of it is mental, outdated & doesn't remotely fit with my strong feminist views which are very liberal.

My eldest brother is a preacher & I'm seeing a lot of him lately as our mum is terminally ill. He has really been rubbing me up the wrong way & gives me strong superior vibes. He's not used to people disagreeing with him I guess but his sanctimonious manner is really pissing me off. It led me to reflect that I find that's the case with a lot of preachers & perhaps if they all believe everything literally in the bible, it's not any wonder they think women should know their place.

Just looking others thoughts & how you reconcile being a Christian with feminism & the bible? Or do most people pick & choose what they take from the bible?

OP posts:
Giggorata · 16/09/2021 01:34

@Riapia

All religions are man made. It shows. Can you name one religion that doesn’t regard women as being lesser? All religions were created by men for men.
Wicca and witchcraft, usually. Venerating the Goddess and her consort.
Kanaloa · 16/09/2021 05:34

Yeah it’s misogynistic. I personally couldn’t follow/base my life on a book I had to be ‘selective’ about. If I didn’t agree with all of it I wouldn’t change my life for any of it.

Kanaloa · 16/09/2021 05:35

But then I’m generally not a fan of any organised religion at all. Can’t think of one I’d want to join if suddenly you had to join a religion.

GADDay · 16/09/2021 05:45

Lets be honest.

It starts with the misogynistic shit right at the start. God is a bloke. Why? Nobody knows.

Followed by a stupid woman ate the apple.
Followed by another woman who conceived immaculately and gave birth to the Son of God.
It goes on and on and on.

It's all mysogynist crap. I struggle to see how many people believe it word for word.

GADDay · 16/09/2021 05:47

@CraftyGin

Look at what the bible has to say about specific women. Women were important in the bible.
Perhaps they were important. They are nearly ALWAYS less important than men.
KihoBebiluPute · 16/09/2021 05:49

The bible was written in a context where misogyny was just normal. Yes there's a lot of really awful misogyny in there, bit also a lot of feminism. I don't consider the bible infallible. The sexist parts aren't helpful or edifying on a spiritual level though it is useful to be familiar with them as a way of understanding how the people back then were thinking at the time.

Bloodyavocadoagain · 16/09/2021 06:08

Im so sorry your DM is so ill.

YANBU imo in seeing the bible as misogynistic.

Im Jewish Orthodox but my DPs rejected the faith and we were brought up culturally Jewish but atheist. The times I have been involved in the religion (weddings, funerals, friends barmitzvahs etc). I have found impossible to get behind in terms of women’s place and roles. Being seated separately to men, services led by men, needing a minimum number of men for certain prayers and rituals to be able to take place, married women having to cover their heads, not being able to shake a rabbi’s hand , divorcing women having to stand before a group of men and be allowed to divorce (in Jewish law) by her husband before she can remarry another Jewish man.) There is absolutely no place for all this ridiculous nonsense anymore. If you step into a mosque, a synagogue you will be preached at and instructed by males. In the Christian church you stand a better chance of being preached at and instructed by a woman but the fundamental misogyny of the teachings will still be misogynistic with women in the bible largely portrayed as whores or Madonna’s and reduced to child bearing martyrs or cunning temptresses.

balloonsintrees · 16/09/2021 06:34

@buckeejit

I was raised in a staunch Presbyterian family. I'm basically the black sheep. I do believe in God & think some of the bible is good but I wouldn't take it all as gospel as so much of it is mental, outdated & doesn't remotely fit with my strong feminist views which are very liberal.

My eldest brother is a preacher & I'm seeing a lot of him lately as our mum is terminally ill. He has really been rubbing me up the wrong way & gives me strong superior vibes. He's not used to people disagreeing with him I guess but his sanctimonious manner is really pissing me off. It led me to reflect that I find that's the case with a lot of preachers & perhaps if they all believe everything literally in the bible, it's not any wonder they think women should know their place.

Just looking others thoughts & how you reconcile being a Christian with feminism & the bible? Or do most people pick & choose what they take from the bible?

Yes, very misogynistic especially the letters of Paul.

Have a look at the work of Mary Daly, Rosemary Radford Ruether & Daphne Hampton; excellent scholars who give varying responses about how to deal with reconciling feminism with Christianity.

Not a Christian btw, A-level teacher with a masters in theology so don't need to worry about the faith element per se.

buckeejit · 16/09/2021 13:00

@Bloodyavocadoagain Thank you. It's definitely a difficult time. I know I would struggle with anything as strict as Judaism, (although there's also something in it that I find it strangely appealing since watching Shtisel)

@balloonsintrees thanks for the recs, will definitely check those out. I find myself bristling with a lot of studies as they're biased towards belief or non belief

Perhaps though if I can't get on board with the majority of the bible, my spirituality has just gone from indoctrinated Christianity to another more abstract thing that doesn't have a physical Community which is pretty sad.

OP posts:
Madhairday · 16/09/2021 13:18

Hello @buckeejit. I'm a feminist Christian and theologian and I do understand your concerns. The Bible was written in its time, it's cultural setting, so of course reflects much of that, but what we find in parts of it are actually really surprising in terms of an emancipatory feminist narrative. Can I suggest you read some stuff by NT Wright and Paula Holder, both excellent theologians with a very feminist view of Scripture, both of whom bring much to light in terms of interpretation and biblical hermeneutics. I actually believe that Paul was about setting women free out of the cultural bonds, but of course the difficult passages must be engaged with and need time to really go through all of the theology and the interpretation of the original Greek. This is a good start from NT Wright but he has written widely on this subject so it's worth digging into his books and articles.

Sorry I don't have time now to go into detail, but just wanted to jump in and say yes, it's possible to read the Bible in a feminist way, and to be pleasantly surprised and even excited by what we find.

Madhairday · 16/09/2021 13:22

You might like this book too - it's a good one.

Jesus Feminist: God's Radical Notion that Women are People too www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0232530734/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_XJYFQPGD3F6531KQT90Z?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

FinallyHere · 16/09/2021 14:04

Having been brought up in the Christian condition, the first clue which put me onto all not being as it should be was reading the Genesis take on Adam & Eve being thrown out of the Garden of Eden.

When I read the bit where Adam predictably blamed his wife, it was just exactly what a not favourite Uncle always said about his long suffering wife, he never took responsibility for his own failings.

Once you spot that, the whole thing where women were either virgin or whore, instead of being mature, adult women, becomes obvious. Sigh.

Nothing to object to in love they neighbour as your self, lots of the rest, nog so much.

RandomMess · 16/09/2021 20:56

@buckeejit I wonder if you find the Quakers a good fit?

With the bible you need to look at the instructions in the context of the culture and situation at the moment in time and take the principle. The bible should only really be interpreted with using the Holy Spirit as a guide. This kind of removes the "literal" instruction.

I heard preaching on women covering their heads and actually it was two different religious groups/ethnicities coming together. One had short her one long (or braided or some such) so they asked to cover their heads so they were all seen "equal" without preconceptions or favouritism. Well something along those lines. So the literal instruction is irrelevant the lesson is to eradicate prejudice.

ChunkyMonkey17 · 16/09/2021 21:16

I was a Christian for a long time and would have even called myself a feminist. When I had my daughter I really woke up to the misogyny of Christianity and left the faith. Women try to convince themselves that Jesus was a feminist but the argument is weak. The Bible is full of awful sexist teaching and women are to blame for everything. Yes Jesus talked to women, big whoop! Why aren’t women included in the disciples if he was so radical!?

I have a lot of clergy in my family and they are similar to your brother. Men like religion as it gives them power and makes them feel superior.

Dinosworeatus · 16/09/2021 21:20

No. Think of Ruth and Esther. Mother Mary etc.
The whole of the Catholic faith puts Mary on a pedestal not that far from Jesus.
It's not misogynistic.

thelegohooverer · 16/09/2021 21:35

I’ve always had a sense that the writings of St Paul feel very reactionary. A huge amount of the NT misogyny is rooted in his writing. But it always feels as if his letters are corrective and that makes me wonder about what he was reacting to - if he had such a need to put women in their place, it suggests that they were significant in the early church.

I’ve also heard that the gospels were written after the writings of Paul, perhaps as attempts to set the record straight? There is a vast difference in tone between the teachings of Jesus and the dry preachiness of Paul. Jesus never told women to sit down and shut up. In fact the woman he met at the well converted the menfolk - that’s a powerful and charismatic speaker! I also think that the conversation at the well comes across as quite flirty.

(I think my religious denomination is heretic.)

thelegohooverer · 16/09/2021 21:40

@FinallyHere I think it’s important to note that God didn’t get pissed off with Adam for eating the apple, but for blaming, not only Eve, but God too “the woman whom you gave me”

Adam was a right weasel.

I think when Christians claim that Jesus came to save mankind they might have a point. As far as I can see the women of the gospels were awesome, but the men needed all the help they could get.

IllegibleSquiggles · 16/09/2021 22:00

@Dinosworeatus

No. Think of Ruth and Esther. Mother Mary etc. The whole of the Catholic faith puts Mary on a pedestal not that far from Jesus. It's not misogynistic.
It’s incredibly misogynistic. Mary is absolutely put on a pedestal, but as a shining example of purity and passivity, a sort of conduit with no capacity for agency, just submission, sinlessness and non-sexuality. Hence the entire faith’s obsession (obviously it’s not alone in this) with policing women’s sexuality and reproductive choices, and its constant refusal to ordain women as priests.
ZenNudist · 16/09/2021 23:26

@buckeejit I know what you mean about feeling we've got a guidebook that's several millenia out of date and feeling lost.

I start with your easier question: "What is the point of a church service then?". I think we need to find a way to worship God, something that tends to our faith. If we don't use our faith we lose our faith. I wonder if you are using your faith at your church. It sounds very disengaging. I don't go for the homilies, I go to make time for God. You could do that in your own way. Maybe an online mass? Church services TV. Com is going to be no use to you (Catholic again) but that's what I do when I can't get to mass. Maybe look for similar in your own denomination. I also like the 10 minute daily devotionals of the lectio365 app. That's a lovely relaxing way to meditate upon God's word. There's a mix of male and female preachers. They're evangelical which isn't my bag but they come up with some lovely viewpoints on the bible. It's all free too! I find lectio divina a great way to connect with the Lord and listen to his word and receive a real sense of being blessed. There's also a practice I did for a while called the Daily Examen, a form of contemplative prayer which really helped me feel at peace and look for God in my daily life.

About the bible, that's a tricky one. I found coming back to faith that the Bible is not helpful. But im finding my feet with it now. I first prayed to God for understanding. I read "reading the bible again for the first time: taking the bible seriously but not literally" by Marcus Burg. He's all about metaphorical reading. Too metaphorical for my liking but helpful. I like his books generally. I also read some NT Wright but I find him drier. His podcast radio show is more engaging.

I also read "Can we trust to gospels" by Peter Williams. That's a great little book talking about historic background to the gospels.

My favourite author is Nick Page who is a Christian historian. He takes you through the gospels as if you were actually there but he's quite grounded so it feels very real and not get hung up in the miraculous aspects of the stories. You could try "The Bible Book: a users guide" He's also got a book called "the badly behaved bible" which you might find interesting. He's very readable. I'd highly recommend him. Reading any of his major trilogy on Jesus's ministry (the wrong messiah), Easter story (the longest week) and early church (kingdom of fools) is a) fun and b) educational. Good reads for around Easter and after.

I don't think the bible is a rule book. There's the 10 commandments and the teachings of Jesus (sermon on the mount mainly) and the you're done for rules. A good preachers can mine all the stories for moralising lessons. I like it when we mine the bible for prayer and praise of God. But you can always come up with your own prayer and praise!

You've made me realise I need to dive back into some Nick Page. I'm doing a bible in a year podcast which is good for bite size bible reading but I miss out on big picture stuff.

Ionlydomassiveones · 16/09/2021 23:44

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

lazylinguist · 17/09/2021 07:53

It was this story that convinced me to become a Christian

I find it quite strange that anything could persuade someone to be a Christian in that way. Surely you either believe in god and Jesus or you don't? If you do, why would you need persuading to be a Christian, since you effectively are one? If you don't believe, how could a story persuade you to become one?

Steeple · 17/09/2021 08:34

@Ionlydomassiveones

The problem is that it really doesn’t matter if learned theologians find the feminist perspective - it’s what filters down to churches and pulpits that matters. The CofE, my religion, is class obsessed and predominantly white with predominantly male leadership. They’re happy for the working class women to make the tea and cakes though.
Absolutely this. If it takes a degree in theology or reading the Bible with detailed contextual notes on historical misogyny and debated translations of key parts etc to be able, with effort, to espy some non-misogyny to set against chunks of Paul and the majority of the Old Testament, then that’s as irrelevant to the lives of most day to day Christians as the people who think it predicts the end of the world next week or the instructions on being a slave owner or keeping away from menstruating women.
Madhairday · 17/09/2021 09:55

Just want to agree with @ZenNudist about Nick Page - I really love all his books, he has a way of bringing stuff to life while giving good historical accounts. He's very good at bringing out the contextual stuff.

As for st Paul, he was responding to contexts in the tricky passages. The thing that's always missed with those is that he said 'let women learn.' unheard of for that particular cultrue, and radical - he actually encouraged women to study the scriptures - the word he used for it was the same as for those studying under a Rabbi. And looking at Romans 16, the number of women he acclaims and thanks for their partnership in the gospel is astounding for writings of antiquity. There is no doubt at all that Paul saw women as co-workers in the church, and co-leaders. The tricky passages were about specific issues like the head coverings as above, and the temple cults where women usurped men etc. Paul's emphasis was very much on equality (Galatians 3:28) and on submission to one another in the sense of listening, respect and putting others above yourself.

LaurieFairyCake · 17/09/2021 09:58

Join the Methodists, about half the preachers are women

The Methodists have a lay preacher system - so for example there are 9 churches in our circuit - we have 3 ordained ministers

This means practically that you only get an ordained minister every 3 or 4 weeks - the rest of the time it's lay preachers (who study for 5 years)

My experience is that the lay preachers are JUST as good sermon/message wise as the ministers

BiBabbles · 17/09/2021 10:52

The Bible, in all it's variants - yes. I think we only get a radical power shift when we challenge the texts which is a perfectly acceptable way to handle it. I mean, Israel does mean to wrestle with God and even within the texts, people argue with God, win, and He can be pleased by this.

Studying the early church and how books were edited to fit a particular narrative (we have fragments where it's clear a name has been written over and similar edits) and how different books were selected to be "universal" when clearly it was universal to a particular male ideal of hierarchal power does make it hard not to see the Bible as a tools by and for power and to sanction particular ideals and practices including misogynistic ones. Same can be said for how different types of religious and highly valued texts were codified.

Some sects have moved away from that use of the texts where people focus on how things then are different to now and there have been translation shifts over the centuries that have altered how certain verses have been used (some for better, some for worse), but I don't see that as changing the issues within the texts itself and how cultures have wrapped around them. A sect being less misogynistic doesn't change how much misogyny is in and has been supported by the Bible. We can find instances of them being 'radical' towards women, though many of them aren't very clear cut (Jesus praising Mary for listening to his teaching through insulting Martha for doing housework and no real radical push for any of the men to help in housework, Paul commanding women to obey their husband is meant to be balanced by men laying down their lives - one is every day, the other is ridiculously dramatic and can only be actually done once) and didn't actually create a radical power shift anymore than Jesus overturning table at the Temple market didn't actually change anything.

I know I would struggle with anything as strict as Judaism, (although there's also something in it that I find it strangely appealing since watching Shtisel)

Much as Christianity has a wide range of strictness between different groups, so does Judaism and there are ways that very common Christian doctrine can be viewed as stricter and leaning more heavily into misogyny in how it interprets the same texts than most of it's Jewish counterparts.

Judaism has many of the same problems with how the texts were created and have been used obviously, but original sin and Eve being the source as an example isn't a concept in most of Judaism. In fact, it's widely discussed within even Orthodox sects that the 'first sin' was actually Adam lying to Eve -- Adam is given the commandment not to eat the fruit, Eve later states a different one of not to touch it or they'll die which wasn't the law which is what allowed the serpent to convince her when that didn't happen. This is used to discuss the risk of ring fencing rules that create additional boundaries but end up causing problems and that the difference was caused by Adam overstepping his mark to be more "pure" and "safe" by lying to her about what God said, putting her at risk and harm. The idea in many Christian sects that Eve is what doomed us isn't really found much in Jewish writings on the topic. It likely comes from later influences (much as we date some Jewish writings by Persian, Greek, Roman and such influences seen in the texts, the same is true of Christian ones and of theology around it) that were then applied to the understanding of that part of the texts to make certain views and actions towards women acceptable.

And for strictness - I don't see much stricter than the fire and brimstone hell as a place of eternal torment for nonbelievers -- even within the strictest Jewish sects that include an individualistic afterlife where people are punished, the worst of the worst people go through that for a year (it's seen as bad to do the Kaddish prayer for a full year because that would assume we view the person as among the most wicked willful transgressors). I find the idea that God creates people to suffer eternally (particularly in a Calvinistic pre-determined way) incredibly strict and vile, possibly amplified by those I've known who take it literally who seem to get pleasure - some outright saying that - from the idea of seeing people being tortured for eternity.

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