I need a 'fundamentalist' christian please - have question

[ahundredtimes]

So up the road live a family of charming christians. And their daughters come and babysit sometimes. And they are very charming and lovely, and ds2 enjoys talking to them about God. And they enjoy talking to him and answering his questions, and they like giving dh and I books about why the bible is true etc. It is all quite fair and fine and we are charming atheists.

Last night ds2 was enjoying just such a conversation, as he was reading a book about dinosaurs. And babysitter said 'did you know that God made the dinosaur bones and left them in caves for us to find?'

and ds2 said 'Now I didn't know that' and settled down for a chat.

Fine. I said to him 'did you ask her WHY he would think to do such a thing?'

Now can anyone tell me if this is current fundamentalist thinking or has ds2 totally made it up? It's rather a fascinating idea really.

I don't really think I can help, 100x, not always being convinced of the literal truth of some tenets of the faith myself (FWIW I do believe in the resurrection), or (much rather) not necessarily being convinced that literal truth matters. For me, God's (and Christ's) divinity is very much bound up with my incomprehension, or extremely incomplete comprehension, of it. I actually don't think we have to understand everything.

The resurrection is really important because without it the Christian movement would quite possibly have been 'just another' movement around a charismatic leader that would have run its course. The actual triumph over injustice and death it represents is central to Christian faith, and of necessity goesbeyond allegory.

(Note to more knowledgeable Christians on the thread - I am red-wined, tired and possibly making no sense).

Ah, well, you wouldn't get a fight out of me, I'm not really very good at them.

I often think Christians have different motives, tbh. For me, I suppose it's like big pyramid of tins. If you knock one out, the whole thing collapses.

I'm not keen on the 'creationist' debate and apologetics, it's just not a topic that interests me. But not all creationists are cut from the same mould, and there are some sensible people (who are even, like, proper scientists) who made an impression on me.

Essentially, though, I'll make the 'big admission' and say that, as my faith is based on the Bible, in a rational and considered way, rather than on a mystical 'experience' and so on, if you were able to show me that the Bible wasn't the literal Word of God, and that what was written in it didn't happen, my faith would be shot to pieces.

Like St Paul said, if Christ didn't rise from the dead, Christians above all people are rather pitiable.

Having said that, now I'm in the convinced position, after a good number of years of studying the topic, of believing that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, it would take quite a lot to convince me otherwise.

Personally I would read Karen Armstrong's 'The Bible: a biography' which I have just found exists review here. I love all her books. But that's from a churchgoing but almost-entirely-unable-to-believe-any-doctrine person.

There was a book called People of the Book (which is how I found the Karen Armstrong one) which my chaplain at college made me read when I had a hissy fit about a reading he'd asked me to do which basically said 'farm workers shouldn't be educated' as I recall. I refused to read it at the service, he went into a snit about my theological illiteracy and recommended the book as explaining the role of Scripture in Christianity from an Anglican perspective. I think I did read it but don't remember the answer IYSWIM. I overslept and missed the service anyway.

Thank you Berolina. Sorry, I think I'm asking rather stupid and simplistic questions probably, but thank you for explaining.

The resurrection would only work as allegory for me if my sins were allegorical. As they're very real, I'm afraid the resurrection will have to be real, too

Oh and thank you everyone else too.

I asked dh Sue, and he said the same as you. That it's important to believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, otherwise it's all up for grabs.

It's a shame in a way. I'm not sure why I think that though. I suppose it's important too.

Right. I am going to read about this now, but it's quite difficult to know where to start. I need Theology for Ignoramuses or something, I don't want to read anything where someone has a silent objective of persuasion.

I'd like to read about Paul. A.N Wilson wrote a book about him I think.

I sippose I woudl count as fundamentalist in the sort of way you are referring to - I regard the bible as truth, though 4 terms at an evangelical bible college is amking me question some stuff- like whydont we really listen to JESUS instead of Paul ...

But I am also an evolutionist and dont think the 2 things are incompatible. There are bits fo the bible that are allegorical, written in poetic language, like oh, Genesis 1-3!

I dont think that God is silly or capricious though, and making dinosaur bones and hiding them in cavs is just plain silly .. so God wouldtn do it, what would be the point?

Yes, I'm beginning to wonder whether Paul doesn't have a lot to answer for Harrisey!

Tom Wright is an interesting read on things like this. Although I don't actually agree with him about Paul's teachings, but there you go.

He's a beardy anglican, and very studious.

And if you really feel like smacking yourself over the head with scholarship, there's always 'A general introduction to the Bible' by Geisler and Nix, which is quite thorough on all the different approaches different strands of Christianity have had to the Bible, too.

Makes a marvellous doorstop, too. or you can hit trick or treaters or carol-singers with it. Who says theology isn't versatile?

I do think God hid some pretty amazing things in caves, though. You wander through somewhere like the Cheddar gorge and it's just astounding that these incredibly beautiful things, like stalactites and so on, were hidden in the dark for thousands of years.

I did sort of think they were like God's cheeky little joke because He made us with this insatiably curious nature.

But that's not the same thing as Him playing a rather mean practical joke to deliberately fool people.

LOL. I am comforted by an academic beardy Anglican, I think. I shall look into it.

The babysitters leave us weird books in large type, usually American, and written for the converted absolutely. I can't get on with them at all.

I might get on with your fella better though.

I'm confused, SB - are you saying dinosaurs co-existed with man?

hunker, I suppose, at some point probably, yes. Although I doubt it was half as eventful as Jurassic Park. No jeeps back then

I still think its a shame that everyone has to be so literal about it all [stubborn] I might even go Christianity a spin if I could get over having to believe it was all really, actually TRUE.

I am going to acquaint myself with Paul.

Is there much about dinosaurs in the Bible? I've not read it in its entirety, though have dipped in and out.

Are we all created by God in our current form then? Iyswim? There's no sort of evolution at all?

And ROFL at no jeeps

I know you want Sue to answer that Hunker, but this illustrates my dilemma.

If a christian could pitch up and say 'No, look, Eden and Adam and Eve is a story, it's a story which illustrates man's relationship to God' then we could start talking couldn't we?

Well not you and I perhaps, though we can talk obviously, oh yes, but me and this Christian person who did the popping could talk.

I must go to bed.

I have read far too much cynical stuff re God to actually ever believe properly. Short of a hand coming down like in old Lottery adverts and going "Er, Hunker? It's me, God. Do believe in me, there's a good chap"

Apologies, because I haven't read the whole thread.

The Noah's Ark Zoo is in Wraxall, North Somerset, about three miles from where I live.

I have never been, because I think they're a couple of loons. But they're obviously switched on enough to charge extortionate money for entry.

No I don't believe any of it either.[sigh] That hand of God thing would be effective though wouldn't it? Much better use of his time than scattering dinosaur bones about.

Oh, wouldn't it just!

I'd believe then. Well, probably.

Oh dear. I am a Christian, though I don't stand at either extreme. I'm somewhere in between but couldn't say where - labelling starts to get a bit complicated, doesn't it?

Firstly I'd laugh at the bones claim - best one I've heard yet!

Secondly I'd ask how old is the boy who came out with that statement. If he's very young is it possible that he may have got his wires crossed? Actually have just read whole thread and apparently there are people who believe this. Hmmm...interesting.

Finally, to answer your question, in all my 33 years as a practising Christian I've never heard of such a thing.

By the way, I've never looked on Ship of Fools website but apparently it's mainly a spoof website - i.e. poking fun at stuff ironically. So you may or may not get the answer you want, depending on what answer you want!

Actually, although parts of Ship of Fools are to do with poking fun at the ridiculous in Christian society, the bulletin boards are a very different kettle of fish, and a LOT of serious (and some not so serious) discussion goes on on them. Don't be fooled by appearances. Just make sure you ask the question in the right forum. If you want debate, then the board entitled "Purgatory" is your best bet. Never post in "Hell" without asbestos underwear on!

If a christian could pitch up and say 'No, look, Eden and Adam and Eve is a story, it's a story which illustrates man's relationship to God' then we could start talking couldn't we?

Ooh I think I might be one of those! (But I'm not going to be about much this week, so might not be able to discuss it much.)

My faith is based first on experience - experience of God's love and reality in my life, especially in response to prayer.

But my faith is also based on the Bible. I believe that it is possible for people to 'find God' without reading/studying the Bible, but that it is an awful lot easier with it!!

I believe that the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, uses a lot of allegory and that as an intelligent reader, I have to weigh up what I read and measure it against my experiences and against the views of other people to whom I try to listen too. (Incidentally St Paul is quite happy with this and argues this in Gallatians, where he describes the story of Hagar and Sarah as an 'allegory'.)

However, I do believe that it is important to keep on questioning our beliefs in the light of the Bible, to make sure that I don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater" - a bit like Sue's stack of cans. If you dismiss certain beliefs as myths, then the stack can come tumbling down. So when you look at the New Testament, the resurrection or the virgin birth or the reality of miracles matter a lot to me, because if they are painted as myths, then Jesus/God is very different to the one I know. Saying that Adam and Eve is a story which illustrates our relationship with God, or that God created a world which is evolving, does not pose the same problems for me.

It can be quite tricky explaining to someone how we draw the line - especially when believing people lines in different places - but that it quite a fun discussion to have.

(I am no Biblical scholar - but I do enjoy the Tom Wright books too by the way - v. clear and helpful explanations.)

HTH

OK have only read OP but there are SOME fundamentalist christians who think that God planted dinosaur bones and evidence of evolution etc. as a trick, to test people's faith

Obviously all nice christians think that they are mad

Most christians think that the creation stories in Genesis is a story which illustrates ideas about the creativity of God, and reflects the myths and traditions of early nomadic tribes from whom the stories of Judaism were handed down