Baby will be Jewish and also Christian?

[Aisforharlot]

I'm Jewish and expecting a baby who, because I am jewish, will also be (by Jewish law).
Dp is protestant and, whilst not religious, I know it's part of his identity.
How do we go about raising a mixed faith child? I don't care much about belief, but it's really important to me that kid has access to the traditions of their Jewish heritage, and has a bar/bat mitzvah.

You could ask at Jews for Jesus, which is an organisation for messianic jews? It's definitely possible! Similar values, traditions etc.

I think you could start by asking your DP which of his traditions are important to him. Does he want his child to go to church at Christmas and Easter? Have extended family celebrations on those days? Go to Sunday school to learn about the faith?

There's a bit of overlap in terms of traditional stories you can read to the child. A lot of Christian children grow up on Old Testament stories like Moses in the bulrushes, the Red Sea, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Ruth and Naomi, etc.

I could imagine bigger issues being whether there's pressure from DP or family to do baptism and confirmation - are you 'allowed' do those as well as having bar/bat mitzvah?

Are wider family around?

My part of the world has a large Jewish population and plenty of marrying other faiths.

I would say that depending on how you feel about it that will come into it. And the cultural aspect is as important and for many (including RC etc) more important tbh.

Is DH a church goer?
Do you practice in any way?

I would always be totally open about the 2 religions. (DH and I are Christian by birth. I'm an RC and he's a non trinitarian faith. Neither of us practice. I'm an atheist with a lot to say about RC!).

I would do the various major points and festivals. I would let eg granny and grandad teach about Judaism/ take to synagogue.

When they're older then the history of the Jewish people, diaspora, Nazis is important.

There's a lot of anti semitism in England. (Where I live). Family background is so important.

Ditto for DH.

It's not a big deal and learning about both and being part of both is a good thing.

(Jewish weddings are so much better than c of e English ones! Ditto Hindu, Scottish, Irish... Bloody puritans!).

You don't have to choose. Do what feels right and with your wider families.

My friend has a Jewish aunt in Israel who does Jews for Jesus. She says it's all a bit.. nuts. Her words not mine!

Jews for Jesus is not both traditions together, it’s Christian totally.
It’s not easy to have these two religions at the same time, they are fundamentally incompatible - one believes Jesus is the son of god, the other does not accept this at all. There isn’t a compromise here.

All babies are atheist.

Is this not something you perhaps should have discussed before deciding to have a baby together?

As pp have said Jews for Jesus is an organisation entirely dedicated to the conversion of a Jews to Christianity.

Most of my mixed faith friends (one Jewish one Christian parent) have all entirely abandoned Judaism as adults. Or, worse, invoked their Jewish identity only to be able to say extremely anti-Semitic things.

My parents are Jewish/Catholic - whilst I went to a Catholic primary that was more because there aren't local Jewish schools where I lived so there was no argument on that front but I also attended Synagogue at particular times but neither religion was really shoved in my face?
I went to a non faith secondary school and took RE at A level and I questioned a lot about religion - my parents very much left it up to me to decide if I wanted to follow one or the other?

As it stands I very much struggled with religion as I got older and lean more atheist now - losing several babies and also visiting Auschwitz several times I suppose you could say I lost my faith(s) a bit.

The best bit of advice I can give is not to pressure either way - celebrate all the relevant festivals so the child is exposed to both but ultimately leave it up to them

Enrol your baby in the PJ Library - you will receive a book every month until they are 8. Each beautifully presented book has a Jewish theme - friendship, charity, kindness, Jewish recipes or it covers one of the festivals. In our house (our relationship is similar to your’s) we celebrated Christmas and Easter and all the Jewish festivals. You have to be more upfront in talking about religion - children will not just pick it up. My son married a Jewish girl, under a cuppa. Whether or not your children choose to practice Judaism , they will always be Jewish and you need to bring them up to understand this and be proud of it. The word that comes to mind is Tradition. Finally, avoid Jews for Jesus!

My father was Jewish (came to the UK in 1939). My maternal grandfather was Russian Orthodox and my grandmother was Anglican although her mother was Catholic!

I was baptised into the CofE and beyond that went to church through school and brownies as a child. However I was brought up with a rich cultural heritage where bits of everything were respected.

I was confirmed into the Anglican Church at 40. I shall always be half Jewish.

Are you in the UK, OP? most synagogues other than ultra-orthodox will welcome non-Jewish partners as well as of course children, so I think that's the place to start. Don't go anywhere near Jews for Jesus - they are Christian, and also in my experiece a bit bonkers.

Thanks @mdh2020, for understanding that my dc will be Jewish whether they practice or not.
Most people don't get that judaism is an ethnoreligion.
All babies are born atheists as one pp helpfully put - no shit. But my baby will be Jewish by heritage, that goes far beyond religious belief. I'm not religious myself, not are any of my family. But we all share a culture.

@samG76 thanks. I'm liberal and know my dp would be welcome, but he's not interested.
He's not religious himself, I've told him if he wants dc to receive more Christian education than provided by living in a largely Christian society, that's his part to organise just as he's agreed I will do cheder and bar mitzvah prep.
And yes, definitely avoid jews for jesus! I have a friend who went that way, he seems happy if incredibly earnest.

Similar with Hinduism. However, and this is important, while a child born to a Hindu woman is always Hindu they can’t really participate as Hindus (even as liberal ones) unless they know their mother’s language; and participate in various Hindu festivals and ceremonies. So you need to consider how ‘Jewish’ your DP is prepared to raise your son - will he agree to a circumcision / bar mitzvah / hebrew and tohra lessons; or will he like my bil say the kids can decide later and by then it’s so late they either aren’t interested or don’t have access to the learnings they need?

@RosesAndHellebores do you ever feel you missed out on the Jewish bit of your identity? my grandpa came from Poland at a similar time, married a Christian, both dc converted and married in again.
Due to the nearness of the holocaust it feels so dreadfully important to me to keep the line going, as it were, even if dc then decide not to continue it with their futures. I'm not sure I can make dp understand this.

@FightingTheFoo life happens. Wasn't an expected pregnancy.

@GrumpyHoonMain that was his stance at first, I wasn't happy with it. No circumcision for us anyway (my choice), but yes, dc will need to grow up lighting the candles and saying the blessings and hearing the Hebrew etc to feel that it belongs to them and is part of them. Shame that your bil blocked that.

@NiceGerbil where do you live that you see as, out of interest?

[quote Aisforharlot]@GrumpyHoonMain that was his stance at first, I wasn't happy with it. No circumcision for us anyway (my choice), but yes, dc will need to grow up lighting the candles and saying the blessings and hearing the Hebrew etc to feel that it belongs to them and is part of them. Shame that your bil blocked that.[/quote]
He blocked it all Ais. I feel so sad for my neice who wants to be part of it now because while she is Hindu and always will be, all lessons, all learning is geared up for kids who speak a Indian language and practice the traditions. We’re trying to support her but it’s more difficult now than it should be

Honestly, in your position, I would just say baby is Jewish and so baby will practice Judaism and just raise him in the faith, and he can convert to christianity (or anything else) later if he wants to.

@GrumpyHoonMain that's so sad. I grew up very close to my Hindu bf and her family, and I saw how much she got from it all...I went along to events with them, seems like such a special thing to belong to and understand.
I did end up saying that essentially! Dp had a think and agreed, but he's a stubborn thing at times and I don't want to hammer on at him about the wider cultural context, nazis etc.

No I don't at all. I am half Jewish by race and that can never be taken away. My father didn't practice but he passed on some customs and and some recipes and always had a handful of Jewish friends.

Interestingly my children are more curious and ds has been to Berlin and wants to find out more and dd is reading theology and has focused on Judaism, the Middle East and Arabic (sadly not Hebrew).
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[quote Aisforharlot]@GrumpyHoonMain that's so sad. I grew up very close to my Hindu bf and her family, and I saw how much she got from it all...I went along to events with them, seems like such a special thing to belong to and understand.
I did end up saying that essentially! Dp had a think and agreed, but he's a stubborn thing at times and I don't want to hammer on at him about the wider cultural context, nazis etc.[/quote]
I think if he’s stubborn you just have to hammer on and not feel too guilty. It would be different if he wanted to raise them in his faith but he needs to support you otherwise. In your position I would probably start Hebrew lessons as early as possible so the kids know it as a routine and he can’t moan them out of wanting to go. Would you consider Jewish schooling eg primary or would that be too far?

@RosesAndHellebores of course, and I'm glad.

@GrumpyHoonMain hopefully by the time forthcoming dc is the age for Hebrew lessons, ds1 will already be going so there'll be peer pressure!
I would consider j school but too far our of area. I never went, to be fair prob wouldn't have as many Hindu / muslim/ Christian friends from school days if I had, though who knows.

[quote Aisforharlot]@GrumpyHoonMain that was his stance at first, I wasn't happy with it. No circumcision for us anyway (my choice), but yes, dc will need to grow up lighting the candles and saying the blessings and hearing the Hebrew etc to feel that it belongs to them and is part of them. Shame that your bil blocked that.[/quote]
I hate to be a Debbie Downer but I think you are underestimating what it is like to have a male partner who doesn't know the language, customs etc etc who will likely stand there unenthusiastically at best while you recite "gobbledegook" (to him) and wave your hands over a candle/braided loaf etc. and expect your DC to embrace the religion.

Kids generally pick up when one parent (Jewish or not) is unenthusiastic and it confuses them and dilutes their experience. My ex boyfriend who had a non Jewish dad ended up pretty fucked up over his identity because he was at a Jewish school with a Christian dad who had zero interest in Judaism. He wasn't Jewish enough for the Jews and wasn't non-Jewish enough for everyone else (which he quickly found out when he went to uni and people asked him if he had horns growing out of his head).

How will your partner feel and behave at your DC's Bar/Bat Mitzvah? Will he wear a kippa? Will he feel awkward and uncomfortable in a shul?

Do you know what it's like trying to convince a disinterested teenager to try and learn a bunch of ancient Hebrew to read out in front of a congregation? Will your DP take your DC's side when they moan and say they don't want to practice it they want to play Xbox/hang out with their friends? Or will he support you and say "no, DC you've got to practice"?

What about Yom Kippur? Will your DP fast? Many of my halachically Jewish male relatives can't be arsed to fast - will a non Jew bother? What about Pesach? Will he go without bread, corn, rice, pasta etc etc for 8 days? Or will he roll his eyes/undermine you in front of DC/eat whatever he wants and your DC, when old enough, will ask "why is Daddy eating bread if I'm not allowed?" As soon as your DC hits puberty and has to eat "crackers" for lunch in front of their non-Jewish mates you can be sure Pesach will be quickly ditched - and they just have to point to their dad to justify it.

And if you decide not to do any of the above, what's the point in learning Hebrew/lighting candles for Shabbat if you don't do Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar? Or celebrate Pesach, one of the most culturally important (along with Rosh Hashana) festivals?

I'm sure you think I'm being a bitch, and maybe I am, but I only know one mixed faith-Jewish marriage (and I know a LOT) where the kid has gone on to have any kind of meaningful relationship with Judaism. And even then that pretty much amounted to keeping most of the festivals in a cultural way and holidaying in Israel every year.

Having said all that, I wish you the best of luck. But I think you need to have a really frank convo with your DP about how you see this going. Saying "oh well I'll be the one to organize/encourage the Jewish learning" won't be enough if you have a DP who isn't prepared to actively support you.

Thanks , FightingtheFoo, for laying it out so candidly - my experience has been the same. Although I know quite a few "mixed" couples who have brought up their children as Jewish, they all had a cooperative DP, were all part of a supportive community, went to Jewish schools, etc. And obviously they had a brit. [This being mumsnet there will be loads of people who say that their friend didn't bother with a brit and now their son is the chief Rabbi of Tiberias, but in RL this doesn't happen]

I think if he's not going to be circumcised and you're not part of a community, you're fighting a losing battle, and it's far more likely that he'll end up being completely screwed up about his identity, as in Fighting's example. I totally fail to see the point of a barmitzvah when his connection with Judaism will be so tenuous...

I don't fast or bother with not eating bread on pesach. My connection to judaism is just fine, it just looks different, clearly. And that's ok. I am part of a community.

Well, you asked about raising a kid that has "access to the traditions of their Jewish heritage". Fasting on YK and not eating bread on Pesach are about as traditional in terms of Jewish heritage as you can get.

Tbh I can't understand the point of lighting Shabbat candles and having a Bar/Bat Mitzvah if you don't introduce them to the most important cultural/traditional festivals.

I just don't really understand what you're trying to achieve.